Politics

[Sared]

This is a Donkey show and political theater at it's best.  You guys are distracted.  Wake up.

Fixed that for you.

[Da6onet]

I do think it's sad that Romney is the best the Republican party could put up.

Revelant question for our generation:
If every nation has the government it deserves, what does America's government say about its denizens?

[Phienyx]

I will agree that there is a lot of money behind both candidates the question should be asked...... Who's money is it and what is their agenda?  I will not support an agenda that advocates removing citizens ability to defend themselves from tyranny or that allows the United Nations to do so because it won't stop there.

[Tbone]

Corporations are people: The idea there is that corporations have free speech in the vein of money. This ruling instantly polluted and corrupted our political process more so than it already was. It's why the fundraising and amounts being spent on presidential campaigns are out of control and why both sides are forced to become puppets to the people with the big pockets. It's an arms race. To make the argument that corporations are people because they are made of people is circumventing the whole reason for the debate. The whole flesh-and-blood thing is just pointing out the error in the ruling that corporations are people and the extremes that might be taken to. Can a corporation become president now?

Obama's Gaff: The banking corruption with Lindor has already pushed this to the outskirts. There's gaffs-of-the-week all the time, and while it's a sound byte for Romney, it's not nearly as damning as, say, tax evasion, a possibility for Romney, or at least that's what could be twisted if he doesn't release his tax records. Most people already know the context of this quote and have moved on, unless you're watching Fox News, in which case you aren't voting for Obama anyway.

Lies, lies, lies: I hate to say it, but likwid is right. Our current two-party system is such a well-oiled corruption machine that we just keep spiraling. Anyone who doesn't play the game is blacklisted and shut out. Whether I agree with him or not, Ron Paul is someone who seems like one of the last honest politicians who sticks to his beliefs, but because of his convictions the Republican party and media did everything they could to minimize his role. I always had respect for John McCain until he ran for president and sacrificed his "maverick" ideals in an attempt to win over the base and satisfy the ones footing his bill. There's no independent party who can even get close.

In the end I think greedy, powerful people have corrupted politics. Big businesses tell us what to say and think and none of us know what's really going on. I feel like the Republican party is more in bed with these corrupted influences than the other side. They use small businesses as an example but really are just out to make sure policies are made to help their best interest. I also think the Republican social policies reflect an ignorant, intolerant, backwards-thinking attitude that, while it's slowly dying out, if nurtured, would just continue to weaken America and keep us in a stagnant stasis (read: slavery, women's rights, child labor, workers' rights, McCarthyism, etc. as past examples). Be all pissy about it, but gay rights are this generation's black rights and one day what the gay community has had to endure will be seen as a mirror to the accepted racist policies decades ago.

[Broin]

Eh someday you'll all grow up and then you'll realize how life is....

It's okay even if you don't someday it'll hit you square in the eyes and you'll be like.... Holy Shit I was such a dolt

[ZephixLeer (Zephic)]

Broin has all and none of the answers all at the same time. You're like a mysterious Mr Rogers.

[Mharz]

History lesson inc..

Abe Lincoln (the president that waged a civil war to free the slaves) was a Republican.

George W. Jullian ( the guy who is credited for leading the group of legislators who wrote the 15th amendment) was a republican for most of his political career.

This thread has definitely disappointed me.  Remain out of the mud I will.

For the record I'm a conservative and I support equal rights for all living beings, denounce slavery, and consider my views one of many paths forward to a brighter future.  It just happens that a larger fraction of my core beliefs align with the right.

[Broin]

Keep going Mharz....  Desegregation... Republicans, democratic party tried to kill it.

Jim Crow laws... Anyone that's right democrats...  1870's Dems gained power back in the southern states by attacking blacks and preventing them to vote.  During the following time period the Dems initiated the Jim Crow laws...

Bah don't get me goin'

[likwidtek]

Mharz, I don't get your point.  

What I think you're saying is that the Republican party is good because of the things republicans have done in history.  My opinion: One has nothing to do with another.  If that's what you mean, then I feel you aren't taking into account that the right wing TODAY are far from what republicans used to be.  You aren't taking into account that what we see on Fox news are Neo-Cons and you don't seem to realize that the current republican party, the tea party, all that... has been hijacked by corporate interests.  

But here's the M Night Shamalama-ding-dong twist.  SO HAS THE Democratic party.  :O  Just because a dude in history did some awesome things and wore a Red shirt, doesn't mean that if you also wear a Red shirt, that you share the same values.  It's a label.  I simple and senseless title.  That's one of the biggest reasons why the two party system is such crap anyway.  It prevents people for thinking for their damn selves.  People now-a-days just vote how they're influenced by their party to vote.  "Well, mr and mrs news show person say that this is how Party X votes... hmmm that sounds good".

It's all messed up man.  There are so many distractions put in the mix to keep people from caring about the real issues.  These idiotic social wedges and all the political theater that's drummed up to keep the American people polarized is MIND NUMBING.  But we all keep doing it because that's what's on TV.  It happens because no one wants to turn the TV off and go fact check the vomit they just lapped up on the TV.  The TV tells us that "The other side is bad, they did this horrible thing, they're coming after what you care about MOST!!!!"  And we just drink it down blindly and point the finger at the guy across the street because he's a Liberal/Tea Partier.  In the mean time, our dollar is being eroded, our freedoms and privacy are being systematically plucked one by one, our children are becoming stupider, we're becoming less healthy, we're fucking up the environment, and we're praising the jerks who are trying to take our money and freedom.

So regarding Democrats versus Republicans, here's the problem for me personally:

I consider myself socially liberal and fiscally conservative.  I feel that my money is my money, I support paying for infrastructure, schools, taking care of those who truly need it,.. But I don't support senseless wars; I think the fact that we have 900 over-seas military bases in 130 countries it pretty damn ridiculous, I'd prefer that I have as much personal freedom as possible, I think that things like the patriot act are the scariest things that could ever happen to us yet people keep smiling and thanking the government for taking their freedom.  I feel that it's no one's fucking business what people do in their bedroom, who they love and who they marry and I feel that congress should not be making medical decisions for American women LET ALONE the rest of us.  I strongly disagree with writing the Christian bible into law.  I believe that illegal immigrants should not get welfare and public resources.  I believe that illegal immigrants who get caught doing crime should be deported.  But I agree that the path to citizenship should be MUCH easier.  I believe that we need to spend WAY more of that money that comes out of our checks on schools paved in gold, filled with the best computers money can buy, only the best and most current books  and teachers should be making enough to support a family on.  

So where do I fit?  What color shirt do I wear?

[ZephixLeer (Zephic)]

I red, white, and blue one. :p

[Mharz]

Lik I think you completely "get my point" but you might not realize it.  

My main history lesson was pointed at Tbone, who, apparently has taken a hefty helping of mis-information.  That history (the facts) were re-written by our left wing friends to make the right "appear" to be responsible for all things backwards, evil, and degenerate.  Republicans (and in fact conservatives) are not bad people.  We don't support evil corporations, we don't support putting seniors out on the streets with no medical coverage, and we don't support things like slavery, unfair labor policies or backwards human rights issues.

While you can demonize the right for their pandering to big business for every example you give for the right being corrupted you can list one for the left.  It is, in fact, as someone pointed out, part of the system.  

Here's the secret no one tells you.  The one you have to figure out for yourself.

The system has always been that way and the only way to change it is to become a part of it and work from inside of it to affect change.

There won't be a revolution.  There won't be sweeping change.  The country will move forward slowly and steadily and many people will rant, rave, and demonize.  Those people will be ignored and shut out because they aren't a part of the system.  They're radicals that no one really understands or cares about.

Sorry to be the one to break this news but that's how it is.  You can't change the Matrix from outside the Matrix.  You have to jack in, get involved, and get a little dirty.  But here's the interesting thing.. when you do, you find out that many of your views about those people in the system change.  They aren't who or what you thought they were.

Lik you completely get the point.  You.. yourself, your views, your position, is not represented.

You're part republican and part democrat and you don't have a person that represents your thoughts/views/wants for society.

The best thing you can do is to figure out which side most represents you and hop into the system, support what you like, talk down what you don't (even on your own side) and make your voice heard.

I'd encourage everyone to write down issues and how you feel about them in private.  List a lot of issues.  Then compare your answers with the party lines/goals.  I think many of you will find, you're actually republicans and don't know it.

[Broin]

I know I'm being bad here by not reading your post Likwid but I pretty much know what it says...

So for all you guys out there who are down on big business and republicans and what not I'm going to demonstrate my thoughts on how you are wrong, by addressing you as if you were my kids.  No not as children, but I'm going to tell you exactly what I use to tell my kids, when they got squirrley.   So from this point forward when you see the word Me or I or we or parents or father or mother just replace it with Big Business.

So this is me now explaining to my kids their lot in life.....

Alright now listen up everything you have, everything you own, everything you do is because I allow you to have it.  I allow you to do it.  The house you live in, the car you drive, the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the water you wash and drink and brush your teeth with.  Everything is because of me and your mother.  EVERYTHING....  You own nothing you have nothing unless we let you have it.  EVERYTHING.  

Without the work we do without the sacrafices that we make you would have nothing.  You think it's easy doing this?   These things don't come wihtout sacrafice and work.  Work that comes from the hours of my life.   Everything you have EVERYTHING comes from me sacraficing my life for them.  PERIOD.  Do you get it.... I sacrafice and give the hours of my life so that you can have the things you want, the things you desire, the things you crave, the things that make your life the luxury it is.  Without the sacrafice of my lifes time you have nothing.

Do you think that I can just wake up in the morning and make these things appear for you.  Do you think that you can just lay around and someone is going to provide you with the gadgets and gizmos and crap you like.  Well you are sadley mistaken because without me you don't get them.  Without me you don't get anything.  Without me you would be living in a van down by the river, and actually not even in a van because without me you wouldn't have the van.  You'd just be sitting on the dirt looking at the water roll past you, like your life rolling past you without me.  

Now I want you to stop and think about that for a second.  Stop and take that smug look off your face, take the sneer off your lips, and the glare out of your eyes and think about it.  If you don't think this is the case then you tell me... Tell me one thing that you have, one thing that you get to do, one thing... One thing alone and I'll explain to you how you don't have it or can't have it unless I allow you to have it or provide it to you.

[ZephixLeer (Zephic)]

I guess your analogy works if mom and dad charged me rent. My parent's didn't.

 

But seriously, big business is well and good... hell it helped to make America what it is. I can agree with that.

What I don't agree with is a Wal-Mart coming to town and putting all of the local shops out of business because it's impossible to compete. That'd be one thing if Wal-mart still bought/sold USA produced goods and services, but they don't. We're buying from China, Vietnam, Taiwan and Japan.

Trade is good too, but not when we no longer provide any goods or services to the global market. We've become a nation of pure consumers because our leaders allowed our goods and services to be sold off to the lowest bidder, allowing corporations to make more profit by paying out less. It's effectively slave labor. Look at working conditions in China. Chinese government's fault? Sure. But we consume the goods produced at slave labor "wages."

The problem isn't in one place. It's our entire way of living. The issue is that it's a cycle we will have hell breaking free from without our leaders taking the first large steps. Joe and Marie down the road can't afford NOT to buy from Wal-mart beacuse they don't make any money themselves. They are forced to buy cheap goods now. Why? Big busines shipped their call center jobs to India. Same for Bob and Sue next door. They aren't working in that factory that made cloths anymore because Chinese workers those jobs too.

Then there are the issues with healthcare we've discussed already...

 This country is great. This country is amazing in so many ways. However, we have problems that aren't meant to be political. We need real leadership to take charge and make things happen. We need true leaders to forget their own wallet for a moment and consider the big picture.

So far, I haven't seen anyone do that but maybe Ron Paul, but geez... I don't even know where to begin with him.

[Tbone]

Being progressive - The Republican party used to be the progressive party. My comparison wasn't a demonstration on how Republicans are always on the wrong side of the fence, but how the conservative stance on gay issues of today will later be perceived in the same right as pro-slavery, lack of women's rights, etc. The Republican party is no longer the progressive party - as a matter of fact, it's a bad word. The party was hijacked and now you can't talk about economic issues without also lumping in religion and family values and other conservative stances. Their base forces them to take extreme sides on these issues, and until they find a way to balance it, I see them becoming weaker and weaker as old people keep dying and young people get older. Likwid would be a perfect Republican in the past, but because of these changes, the Republican party is losing him to the independent area. He's up for grabs.

Big business is your mom - It's a good analogy. But mom and dad still pay taxes. And if they don't, they get in trouble. And if they get in trouble and go broke or go to jail, guess who also gets screwed over. You. Mom and dad can't just go to the casino and gamble away all their money or you're not gonna get fed. Mom and dad are held accountable just as much as you are for their actions, and because of that, they have to make smart choices to keep themselves and you alive. Big businesses and Wall Street have lost that accountability and now they're breaking open their kids' piggy bank to go buy more booze. Intervention time!

[Broin]

T I think you should replce big business in your statement with big government and then you'll have it right