Politics

[Anonymous]

Oh Mir, beleive me, if I was 18 my vote would be going right to the Democratic side. Zink though, I can't believe you said that....it's so stupid to be mad at the Iraquis....we're invading their home. Just like Keta said let the country istelf free itself from a regime that it doesn't like. It defines themselves.....it makes sure that they would value their independece so much more, it'd also make sure that the country wouldn't fall into corruption and another regime for a while.


First of all, I CANNOT believe that in this supposedly greatest nation of all how in the hell we would allow ourselves to believe that it was an error in the same state as the president's brother governed over, and there was nothing o be suspicious of....it;s mind-blowing the ignorance and just total laziness people have! Good Lord...it's like purposefully watching someone steal your money and walk, not run away with it right before your eyes while you did nothing.

Even with my knowledge, I am absolutely sure that we don't lknow all o Bush's corruptedness. But that's okay! We know that he is infact corrupt! He is a pig! A liar! Honestly I love America, but he makes me ashamed to say that I am a produc of this country. In some cases, and scenarios, I'd be afriad to say I was, instead of proud to be who I was. I so wish that I could see Farienhit 9/11 as I've been unable tos ee it as of yet.

Not to make anyone scared or anything, but listen. This is all I can say, and all I can say is this - No nation rules forever. A nation as corrupt and evil, as America is going to fall, one way or anyother, one day or another. May not be today, tomorrow, ten years from now, bu it will happen. Even Rome, Eygpt two of the greatest civilizations ever to rules the known worlds was broken. Hell Rome was sacked by raving barbarian savages......jsut goes to show you.

[Anonymous]

Hey, since this seems to be a bash Bush thread, I'll say my piece.

Kerry's platform is based on unwavering indicision. He changes his stand with the wind. Check his record. He's on both sides of every argument. Bush makes his stand-he's got a backbone. Kerry has the NERVE to say he'd fight terrorism better than Bush, ha. That's where the current office does it's best work. And the stupid thought that Bush caused 9/11 is unfounded. That came from 8 years of democratic whoring with the nations that cause and support terrorism. before Bush came into office. Believe me, if anybody else had been in office, we'd be asking Afganastan to "please excuse us for being America" after they bombed us! No pussy-footing around from the pacifast democratic party would have done anything productive. I, for one, like Bush. Not every thing he does, but no ones perfect. He makes a moral stance, and I apprectate THAT. What is everyone upset about: the war that ended a tyranny  that was barbaric, to say the least? or standing up as aprolife advocate? or voting against same-sex marriage? or giving tax breaks to the middle class? To me this seems like a mob mentality-"let's all bash Bush so I'll feel better about myself!" No one has been under the pressure of the Presidency, but like Monday morning quarterbacks, everyone knows how to do it better than the ones in office. Sure, I'm a republican, but only after the democtrats mad me so sick with their immoral actions that I had to change parties.

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with Eclipse. My nation is going in the same direction that Rome was such a long time ago. I don't think any of us will live to see it and I doubt it's going to be by raving barbarians, but it's going to happen relatively soon.

[Anonymous]

And the stupid thought that Bush caused 9/11 is unfounded. That came from 8 years of democratic whoring with the nations that cause and support terrorism. before Bush came into office. Believe me, if anybody else had been in office, we'd be asking Afganastan to "please excuse us for being America" after they bombed us! No pussy-footing around from the pacifast democratic party would have done anything productive. I, for one, like Bush

Let me be the first to say this:  

The only people to blame for 9/11 are the terrorists who plotted it.  Period.  

Yes, America is learning some lessons right now...but...thats the course of a nation growing up.  I honestly believe that it was only a matter of time.  Besides, when you are the only real super-power....and...nobody other than China could really take you on......a terrorist attack is the most likey form of  attack.

But, no American was to blame.  Not Bush Sr, Not Regan, Not Clinton, Not Carter, Not  Bush Jr.

Hopefully, we learned a lot of lessons..........but still, if somebody wants to take a swing, we are a HUGE target. Not hard to hit, domesticaly or abroad.

Our security at airports has been lax for a VERY long time.  Until 9/11, all those lazy sods at the terminal were paid for BY the airlines, not the local Airport / Port authorities.

I knew somebody in charge of such a Airport (smaller town, not NYC) and he would review and evaluate.....................but if the airlines didnt want to spend the $$$............it didnt get done.  And, if you recall, there were a number of private, BIG corporations who got fined riiiiight after 9-11.  I need to double check, but, I think they had ties to, gee, TX.

Uhm...and what about the previous truck bombs in NYC............at the WTC?  Hello?  

We knew.  We knew they were coming, we knew there were holes. Nobody wanted to spend the cash.  Just as in any crime........follow the $$$.

And, besides, during the Cold War era..............the Russians were sitting on these guys FOR us, keeping them employed in the regions bordering the ole Soviet Union.  

Now that THAT war is over...........where do the warriors and disenchanted poor go? Back to war.........but....where?  So, we did "win" the cold war.  But, the focus on us now we are the #1 guy.....

And who doesn't want to be known as the dude who took down the baddest of the bad?  

Leadership is a mother.  Darn all that power and responsibility crap. Cant we just hire Spider Man and be done with it?  

He makes a moral stance, and I apprectate THAT.

Yes. Decisiveness in leadership is an admirable trait.  I, for one, just don't agree with most of his morals.  Which is fine. If he was elected.  IF.  And if he doesnt suspend civil liberties to enforce them.  IF.  Or, if he doesn't march into imperialism. IF. Or, if he doesn't rob those people whom he claims to hear the heartbeat of.....oh.....by taking away their overtime and giving huge tax breaks to the rich.  Yes, the numbers show they benefitted much,much more. IF.  He just doen't meet any of the IF THEN evaluations I can stomach.

What is everyone upset about: the war that ended a tyranny  that was barbaric, to say the least?

 

See my previous comparisons of   W to  an eastern flavored fundamentalist zealot.  

Soooooooooooooo..........if   fundamentalism and torture, suspending civil rights, etc.....are good enough reasons for invasion..........uhm........when should we expect Canada to liberate us?

W , or the govt. now, cant  find ANNNNY of his records that prove he served.  Go into my bedroom, along the right wall in my closet is a briefcase from when I was closing out of Ft. Campbell  and the 101st............if an enlisted man like me mangages to somehow have enough paperwork to prove he served....how come somebody with enough $$$$ to hire lawyers, accountants, and, oh....what about the ARMY..........nooooooooooooooobody can find his records.  

Yea.  Ok.

But, he can find WMD in a haystack?  

I call bullsh!t.

or standing up as aprolife advocate? or voting against same-sex marriage? or giving tax breaks to the middle class?

 

Nothing is wrong with believing, or advocating those things.  I happen to strongly disagree with ALL of them, but, that is what makes America strong.

And, as I've mentioned,  his middle class tax break is a crock.  

Middle class, two kids, respectable income, etc...............didnt get a penny from those "refunds" .  

And...............hmm.   My situation might get a little worse if the wife loses her OT pay starting monday.

To me this seems like a mob mentality-"let's all bash Bush so I'll feel better about myself!"

Mmmmmm. No.

 I have to raise an eyebrow there.  That one, is one you might want to take back.  This is the only small part I have to "take issue" with.  

If nothing else, I think this and other posts have given reasons people dislike  W.

No one has been under the pressure of the Presidency, but like Monday morning quarterbacks, everyone knows how to do it better than the ones in office.

Ok.

The Euro is whupping the $ of late, and all that Haliburton money from Iraq was going to the European countries who WERENT  prohibited from doing business in Iraq.  

The Saudi  monarchy isn't going to last THAT much longer, and, well....where else were we going to get a foothold in the region?  

Now, in the very accurate "You want me on that wall, you NEEED me on that wall"  Jack Nicholson-in-"A Few Good Men" kinda way...  ( "You can't handle the truth")  

There are those of us who SEE that way of thinking, know there are harsh realities..........................and choose to  live differently.  That's not the way it HAS to be.  

Now, was Slick Willy something of a disgrace and a shyster.  Well, yea.  But, in the home of the free and the conformists, "the rest of the world"  was laughing at why we made such a big deal over ....a blue dress.   The rest of the world was screaming about us invading Iraq, who, after a war and all those sanctions....was no threat to anybody.

We look like the embarrased kid who reacts by picking a fight on a weaker kid.

And, well, the impeachment .................Republican.  ( Current ruling faction there of, to be more specific)

WMD and Iraq...........................................Republican.  

Slick willy was one extreme of the Boomers . Self -indulgent .  W is the other. Spoiled party frat boy ingnoramus latch key brat who needed his Dad, his brother and Uncle Richard to get him a job.

I really, really dont like the boomers. And, yes, my parents are boomers. But, thats another rant.

Here is what cracks me up....

Vince Foster and Whitewater...............nada.
Hanging Chads......................................nada.

If the American people dont DO anything...........

 Sure, I'm a republican, but only after the democtrats mad me so sick with their immoral actions that I had to change parties.

Ya know, I have a feeling we might not agree.........just in general.......about politics.

Thats cool.  Your post was fine, and I hope yours, mine, and whatever others will prove the initial assumption of this thread, wrong.  

Personally, I tend to lean twoards the Democratic side.  I am more liberal than conservative.  

I don't hate all things Republican, that isn't what I want to be taken from this.  I just dont like the current "ruling faction" of that party.  Im not anti Republican, just very,very anti W.

If  whatever powers-that-be werent there, and we had John McCain up front...........I would be more than willing to listen. I  think you could REALLY have a good election/campaign/debate circut  with McCain vs Kerry.  

But..........that isn't going to happen.

Which is why, at this particular point in time,  this election is crucial.......and this country is so divided.

Cool.  I gotta get on with the business of the day.......but....good thread so far!  

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with Eclipse. My nation is going in the same direction that Rome was such a long time ago. I don't think any of us will live to see it and I doubt it's going to be by raving barbarians, but it's going to happen relatively soon.

Well,  if   pain is a way of the body telling the mind...."Hello! Problem here!"

Than such things should be a call to....participation.

Apathy is the biggest enemy of freedom in the USA.

Our soldiers serve, but , if the civilians dont................it isnt  much good.

Vote.  Be active in PTA ( or just in the school, I dont allways like *joining* stuff). Go to civic associaton meetings. Vollunteer, even if its once a year .... during Christmas..........to.........pass out presents in the Hospital.  Whatever.   Participate.

Let people SEE you do it, but dont get all braggy about it.  Kinda defeats the purpose.

The American Revolution started .............with farmers and small businessmen, and went from there.

Grass Roots is where it is at.  Regardless of your ideals, etc.  If you participate, and are adult/civil, the United States will be just fine.

Various Administrations will continue to  shine and flop, but, hey........they are politicians, and only human.  So, they are doubly ....in for it.  

Jimmy Carter.................GREAT man, lukewarm President.
Bill Clinton.......................lukewarm man, great President. Well,  mostly, IMO.
Regan................................great man, great President.
Bush Sr.............................decent guy, above average President.

So....on average we do ok.  None of us will likely agree 100% on ANY of the policies/decisions.........their own best friends make, let alone their govt.

But, it is one of the few places on earth OF, BY, and FOR the people.  

And, it's a reflection of us.  We outta take care of it.

[Ketamininja]

There are so many different takes on all being discussed.
Obviously, people support Bush, and people don't.

As the question was "How do other countries see the US", and when referring to Bush, only the worst things stick in the memories. I'm sure Bush has done some GREAT things for the US as well as all the shit that sticks.

There was this whole Florida vote thing when he got elected. That was the first step on a journey to "hating Bush" if you like.... there are many many things that occurred that are seen in a bad light, including the removal of all felons from the voting registrar, as well as those who shared a birthday (and/or last name too?? can't remmeber) with those felons.

That takes a lot of voters off the list - they may well have voted Bush anyway, but if they were not accounted for we will never know.
There are those who will misues their power, and those who will try their best to do the right thing at all costs.

Every decision made is a moral decision, and a judge of character....

THe UK people protested. We didn't want to go to war. But Blair was sitting on Bush's lap too much, and couldn't say no.

Scandal is exciting to talk about, and hard to dismiss.

If the Iraq war was about WMD, at first, then when is Bush going for Norht Korea?
Hell, the U.S. TRUST certain nations who have WMD, they don't ask them to get rid of them because they think it wont be used on the US or other countries... things can change....

If Iraq was changed to be about removing Saddam, then why not remove some other dictators around the world? Why support Israel?

Its all about what the US get out of it, or what other countries can.
Its not always about the right thing.

Bush has had a chance, and the people all over the world have spoken about their dislike for him. My opinion is give another guy a shot, and see if they can do better... maybe they can't, but .. iunno

Campaign chat is all just talk until action takes place... every politician has a lot of wind.... but they do know more than we do... the public is not privvy to the same info to make certain decisions.

BTW I have no doubt that 9/11 or any terrorist act is bad, just as any form of opression is. There are a lot of holes around many stories.... but wiping terrorism from your own countries first would be MY priority... you will never be able to wipe out the elements in other countires, no matter how good your intel is.

They are stiffling the terrorists by the current actions, of course, but they are also aggravating them too.
I like playing devils advocate, it encourages full debates will logical questions and answers. I try to sit on the fence, I'll submit an idea I don't necessarily agree with, but I'm open to hear and intrested in others opinions of.

[Anonymous]

sorry but i'd have to disagree with that keta...the presidents are pushed towards their decisions on what will make them look the best and how much money/oil (in this case) he can get.

giving him a second chance is an awful idea, would we give all the people that died at 9/11 a second chance or maybe all the soldiers that have uselessly(not sure if thats a word) lost their lives for a war on oil.  the president has to make monstrous decisions, but if you messs up, you dont get a second chance.

i dont want to get more people pissed off, but a mob mentality sounds about right, a president could be a GREAT president, i mean wonderful, but the SECOND he makes a mistake, everyone hates him and resents him.  lets say clinton, he was a pretty good president, good at forgein affairs, gj. the second that scandal happened, which in any case i dont blame him other than he picked one fat chick to cheat on his crypt keeper wife, everyone hated him, dispised him, all the hard work that he had put forth towards the country was useless now because he he was a normal guy and didn't want sex from father time.lol sorry for bashing hillary, shes a great politician, but she did deserve this, she should of known the kind of person slick willy wasand how to keep him under control

...ok back on track.   im not too particularly proud of being an american, hell given me the choice and the cash, i'd move to another country, but im stuck here and i have to live with corrupt politians only wanting whats best for their wallet, not the people.

You might think my views are a little extreme or a little immoral, but try explaining to the parents and children that died in iraq already that were fighting terrorism after we pull out of iraq with our taill between our legs like we did in nam.

and if we look in history, my views aren't that immoral, if you can recall two cities that were bombed shortly after pearl harbor? i hope nagasaki and hiroshima ring a bell.  i wont disagree that it scared some people, we created one of the most destructive weapons in the world and used it.  but every country was afraid, hence UN coming about before or after...dont remember. but those are my views, if ya like em or not its what comes to my mind first when i see what u guys are typing. they might be immature or stupid, but remember, when you see president Zink being sworn into office...watch out lol

[Anonymous]

Did Garofalo say that?  I just heard it from a friend of mine and liked it, so I thought I'd throw it on up here.  I apologize for not giving credit.

[Anonymous]

I don't like either candidate. I hate to have to choose. I'll probably pick bush just because Kerry has no spine. He fought in vietnam only to come back and protest. He arranged for Ex-military vets to throw away their hard-earned purple hearts only to throw away fakes. He's a two-faced, trendy, political w.... well I won't make this more vulgar than it has to be.


I'm not saying Bush is much better, as far as skills go. But at least he makes a choice and sticks with it. I'm not saying he didn't lie, or that he isn't corrupt, mind you; only that he is willing to take steps to solve problem the best he can.

If it were up to Kerry, we'd have our head so far of the UN's ass, we couldn't see daylight  long enough to know that people like Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussien are evil and a possible danger to us. -Nukes or not.


-and now you know my opinion.

[Anonymous]

One thing: Yes, Bush is not a good president. In fact, I have no doubts in my mind that he is not the president, rather that Dick Cheney is the real brains behind the operations. Now, let me argye with Muse for the sake of arguing(BTW, I am actually suporting either not voting, or voting Nader. Neither Bush nor Kerry deserves to be in office)

Mirmir, did I just here you say that thanks to us being in constant fear of being brutally killed by nuclear missles, there were no terrorist attacks, and that, although I'm probably being a little too radical with this, that you think the cold war was a good thing?

And nobody won the cold war. The U.S.S.R fell apart, and Reagan (arguably the best president of the century next too maybe Roosevelt) announced we had "won". Bullshit, huh?

***

I despise big business. The CEO's make all the money , while the millons upon millions they employ get much less. Wait. The millions upon millions they[/i] employ? Although yes, the tax breaks do benefit wealthier people more, there are a couple of points. 1)They're people too. Although most of them have sold their souls to satan, there are some who actually worked their asses off to earn that money. What, are we supposed to penalize those people because we[/i] dont make as much money about them. 2) Bid business benefits from these tax breaks, in turn benefitting the millions they employ. Theres more to something than the liberal or conservative views of "lets either benefit the rich or[/i]. Both parties are full of assholes, that cant be changed.

***

Firstborn, Mirmir is right. Bullshit must be called on that. Although I believe he di serve, what the hell did he do? Him and Clinton just pussied out of vietnam like the bitches they are. Excuse my language.

***


I have so mixed feelings about abortion and euthanasia I couldnt really figure out a clear agument to that part of the state ment.
Same Sex Marraige: No. I strongly dissagree with same sex "marraige". I am not catholic, or christian, or jewish, or any of those religions who advocate marraige so readily. But marraige is a sacred institution between man and woman, not man and man or woman and woman. Now, I have conpunction about civil unions other than this: Knowing the good ol United States, once this was allowed as a civil unions, people would start coming in with their sisters, pets, and foods to get civil unions. Its just the way of things. Cant change it.

***

I hate Bush. Although I will not say if we was elected or not (remember, in addition to the "lost ballots", there were the military ballots that werent counted, as there was "no need" for them), I will agree, though its not here, you must admit there are some ignorant fools who hate bush to hate bush, because there mommy or their friends tell them too.

***

Mirmir summed it up.

***

McCain? Kerry? Yes, that would be a fairly good debate, I must admit. But there are only two people in either  party who I'd like to see in office.

Republicans: Collin Powell

Democrats: Wesly Clark

Wait make that three; John Edawrds.

***

My take on what many call one of the greatest presidents for some reason:

John F. Kennedy. What the hell? It may be because im half cuban, or maybe because I live in Florida, but I hate the man. Why? He screwed Cuba over in the Cuban Missle Crisis. If we are a great country, we could've dealt with those missles. Theres no doubt in my mind we could've. But instead of show incentive (and break the rule that only Republicans start wars, because we all know that would be a travesty), he decided to screw over Cuba and take the asy way out. Now, the Cubans wish someone, mainly the United States, would topple the regime. There is no way the residents of Cuba can do it, its just been that way for too damn long. But thanks too good ol Kennedy, the one country asking for our help we cant help. And of cours,e we wouldnt want to end millions of dollars in illegal exports to the United States by at least opening trade with cuba, right Mr. Bush?

Yes, I proabaly made a bunch of mistakes there. I'm trying to type as fast as I can. And welcome back Eclipse.

[Anonymous]

Wow...some really good posts....

Im stuck at work, so I will have to repsond later.  See, this has been a good discussion.

bbl

[Anonymous]

Ultimately, I believe there is no one way to define America's international image. It changes at random based on everything from foreign policy and human rights to business monopolies and personal affairs - not to mention the given country's own politic and social climate. Many still view America as "the Land of Freedom", which is not to hard to see. Despite our social structure which has been solidifying over the past two hundred some odd years, America still boasts one of the most pronounced trends of social mobility. This is not to say that in other countries one couldn't go from rags to riches, but it seems that in a lot of cases one would stereotypically think of that situation happening in the States. That idea can obviously be taken naively, but in general it seems quite valid. Also, we mustn't forget that America's image is constantly skewed by the benefit of hindsight, for better or for worse. We are constantly comparing the present with the past to gage adequecy and ability, which inevitably will cancel out at least some aspect of the situation that could be otherwise important.

Considering all this, I find it hard to definitively provide one view as an answer over another.

But aside from the first question, I generally tend to lean towards Democrat - partially because I'm from MA, and well, what is Massachussetts if not Democratic? But unlike some of my fellow Democrats, I pride myself in not being so easily turned into a Bush-Hater by people like Michael Moore. I learned what I could about Bush and his policy before deciding to disagree with his adminstration's actions. I think the biggest problem in the up-coming election is going to be the fact that a lot of people will vote for Kerry and not Bush because it's become cool to hate Bush. Though I do support Kerry, an uninformed decision is worse than no decision at all.

[Anonymous]

I just wanted to point too two completely opinion oriented posts, and tell you which one is actually fair and balanced and which one is well, completely unfair and balanced.


Siren: Excellent post. I lived in MA for about a year, and that’s where I garnered a lot of my "liberal" views. It is definitely a democratic state, but at least they do have balanced views. And, unlike some people here, anti-bush is a new trend in America’s youth.

Eclipse: I didn’t notice your post in my previous post. As I said, yes, there was underhandedness involved. But must you assume Jeb has no integrity? There is a reason that he has been re-elected as Florida’s  governor. People do like him here. There’s a reason for that too. Republicans aren’t the devil Eclipse. And people aren’t lazy. I really think Gore could’ve kept on going with the re-count. But he didn’t want too. It proved Bush wanted it more.

As to your next comment, even with all your knowledge you don’t know the full extent of his corrupted ness? That just destroyed any credibility you have man. We know that he is corrupt? That he’s a pig? A liar? There is not one president who was not a bigger liar than Clinton for one reason: He lied under oath. Yes, Bush is a liar. So were Carter, Roosevelt, Reagan and even Kennedy. Clinton however, under oath, clearly had stated he had no sexual relations with that woman. I don’t care that he got a frickin blowjob. Good deal for him. But when you lie to the very backbone of what keep’s America together, law, is when you lose my respect. Clinton did some good. Plenty of peace treaties. With terrorist supporting countries, which continued to support terrorism. And Fahrenheit 9/11? Don’t get me started on that piece of trash. Political propaganda, not supported by the left wing that is so completely one sided, not even my most liberal friends say it is a real balanced view. The same goes for all of Moore’s movies.

America falling? America fell in 1939, when we refused to live up to the world’s expectations and join in WW2, against the greatest threat to world peace that has ever been recorded in history. That is when we lost our position as the leaders of the world.  We lost it before we ever gained it. And we do not rule the world. Or else France and Germany would have helped us liberate Iraq and then ask us for contracts there, instead of offering no help then asking for a piece of the cookie. As for being overtaken, with Canada to our north, and Mexico to our south, I doubt that we could be invaded. Defeated across the Pacific? Possibly by China, the only country who could even imagine taking us on, and now with N. Korea threatening the U.S., China is in a tight position.  China is in threat of being nuked by N. Korea, is they even decide to start anything.

And why haven’t we done anything to N. Korea? We have allies over there. China, Japan, and even India are over there. We don’t want to risk them being bombed the crap out of. If you think we should take out a regime at the cost of a country, go right on ahead and think that.

This is completely my opinion. I'm sure some of you completely agree with Eclipse's post, but he say's things that should be supported with facts,  not just saying "he's a pig"

[Anonymous]

Crimson how can you say that about Kerry though? I mean to go to Korea and come back to protest? DUDE! I'm sure that if you fought in ANY war that'd you try and stop any other wars, using any possible methods that you could. Hell, I mean if I fought in Vietnam, if I still had any of my God-given senses I'd protest the hell out of wars, do anything I could to try and stop other people from remotely going through the same things I did - especially for a dare I say shitless, uselles cause.

They have not found one not one goddamn WMD yet. Bush is a lar. I'm sorry, but I don't think that if you're in a position that you hold a country literally hundreds of millions of lives at stake and you lie to the people just so that you can go avenge your father's vedetta that you should be be trusted with helping an old lady across tehs treet, much less leading a nation.

Of course we all have our own opinions, but even so Firstborn, I'm surprised that you'd be against some of the things that you said you were for. But in all honesty I really shouldn't be. It goes against America's own laws to tell someone who they can bed and who they can wed. It'd insane. Hmm what was those old laws again....jeez I can't remember it....it's on the tip of my tongue....OH YEAH! The BILL OF RIGHTS! You know, the raggedy old laws that built the foundation of this nation. Article three states (I won't bore you with teh whole thing I promise), "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....." In and of itself it stops any person from not letting those "unmoral people" from getting marrired. Who is Bush protecting the "sanctity" of marriage from? From the law? He has no right to say that it's unconstitutional for these people to be married.

Illuvatar, I'm not sayign that Jeb doesn't ahve "any" integrity, but if he did, I wouldn't be aware of it, the only thing I AM saying is that isn't it a little, oh come on just a little suspicious that the voting error went wrong in the very same state that his brother was governing? And yes however Clinton did lie under oath. And yes a man in his position of power it was godly wrong to do so, but bro, his lie didn't cause people to die. His lie didn't cause people to lose thier lives, and even more so bring the coutnry to such a hated level but other coutnries. You have to look at it on a relative scale. And unfortuantely it does sound like I'm being a bit biased, but wehn we label ourselves as to be liberal, democratic, republican, conservative, we automatically bias ourselves - so....sue me.

When you go to war....when you puts the army's men and women, the parents and family of those men and women, the country's reputation and security on the line all for SUPPOSED AND ALLEGED WMD that to date have not been found then yes I'd call you corrupt. When you're one of the biggest backers of the UN and tell other people to go to the UN to solve their problems, but then you go in and attack without the UN's agreement then yeah, I'd call you corrupt. **My opinion read at your own risk** Oh And yeah when you'd deny the right for women to do what women want to do with their own bodies then yeah I'd call you a pig. Especially, not to get off topic or disgusting, but I'm absolutely more then sure that Bush commited a little aborting in his life..........if you catch my drift.

Oh and I NEVER said to completely bomb a country to get rid of a few people. I was saying that was a stupid idea. I was referring to Zink who had posted that idea.


In closing, sorry if this seems a little well passionate, any of you who've known me for a bit know that I'm passionate in all my ways.

- www.airamericaradio.com

[Anonymous]

Hmmmm, although I hate to post soon to my last post after all the posts I've made in this thread, it's just too tempting.

1.Although this doesnt have to do specifically with your argument, you mis labeled Kerry as a Korea vet. Just thought I'd point it out. And Eclipse is right, he has all the right in the world to protest against wars, that just shows he went through it and decided it is wrong, and I'm sure he would would've been pro war if he had decided that.

2. Before Bush was chosen as the republican candidate, the republicans were working on finishing that. So you cannot say it was just to avenge his daddys "vendetta". Also, they did find WMD shells, although they did not find uranium, it is mighty suspicious to have those kind of shells lieing around in your country....

3. Again, marraige is a religious institution, and as the churches dont want gay marraige to be legalized for the few evangelists to do marry, why violate their rights? Again, civil unions are much more reasonable and all around a better idea.

4. I would have said that, if he had not thrown out the military ballots. In doing so, to me, he actually betrayed his party. Of course, I looked higher up at him, due to him actually not being completely one sided. And of course he was looking for every oppurtunity to get his brother in office, im just not convunced that he would stoop to making stuff up to do it. And if you remember, Nixon was impeached for Watergate. Now, he had no involvement in Watergate until the whole scandal was going on, but he lied to the American people saying he didnt know, and he was impeached due to that lie. Although this is a lot less important than that, lieing under oath is lieing under oath. And Bush was technically relying on Information from his intelligence, which both Clinton and Kerry did vote for cuts in. For all we know, he was just relying on info given to him, not outright lieing to us. We cannot disprove that.

5. I have no real argument to your first statements in that paragraph, as it is nothing but opinion and I'd rather not go full on opinion, but I awnsered the WMD question earlier. And the U.N.? I would've wholeheartidly agreed with you, if they hadnt attempted to get they're hands wet when we "toppled" the regime their. I lost respect for America and the U.N. in this past war. And while my opinion on abortion is to legalize, again, its Bush's opinion Eclipse. He fighting for his opinion, and if he cant have his opinion and the right to fight for it, then I see no reason for me, or you, or Crimson, or Firstborn, or Siren, or any of the other members of this clan to be able too. While you may find him a pig, others find his views perfectly reasonable, as the argument against abortion is as strong as the argument for it is. And hmmm, if you wanna talk about aborting, lets talk about clinton again......

6. I never said you did. That was part of my post that I was stateing my opinion.

7. I just lost respect for you when you put up that radio shows website. Although I see what your trying to accomplish doing it, I feel that the radio show in question is so one sided, that nothing can be gleamed from it other than its so left sided, they seemingly go off the planet. I would post Limbaugh's radio show site, but as one I despise it, and two I dont feel like looking for the URL, I wont.

And, although I believe in most of what I said, a lot of it also is just the counter argument to Eclipse's post, which was actually excellent this time.