Imperial Alts Discussion

[Tbone]

Apparently this was brought up at the meeting last week that I wasn't able to make it to. I thought I would give my opinion on the matter.

Members of FA signed up for a Republic guild on an RP-PvP server that focuses on PvP, raiding, and any other game events that focuses on teamwork and cohesion. I feel that creating an Imperial chapter of the guild divides our resources, members, and time, and breaks the promise I made to all of you in your interview about what this guild is.

Are people going to run Imp alts? Yes. I can't stop that, and I have no desire to stop that. But does the guild have to provide in-game functionality to promote and encourage members to spend more time on the Imperial side? No.

"But we want to group up with other FA when we are on our Imperial alts!" That's great. You're on Teamspeak, right? If not, you should be. See if anyone else is on their Imp alt. "Yeah, but there are lots of channels in Teamspeak and I don't want to bother people - I need a list of guild mates to see if they are online". A list of names, you say? Use the Friends list! I'll even go so far as to create a thread for people to post the names of their Imp alts.

If you were looking for a guild that "dabbles", this is not the guild for you. We don't dabble a bit in one game and dabble a bit in other game. We don't dabble a bit on one side and then dabble a bit on the other. We commit ourselves to certain goals and we strive to be the best we can at that.

It's almost the same as multi-gaming. You're going to play other games. Other FA members might play those same games. I encourage you to use Teamspeak and Steam to find other FA members playing those games. But I'm not going to create a separate guild chapter for that game. I'm not going to divide up our resources like that. And when big events are going on - PvP, raids, meetings, etc. - I'd expect you to be around for that instead of playing another game or playing the Imperial side.

Should you go run an Imperial alt to check out the story? Maybe see the similarities between classes? See if they really are assholes over there? Sure. But should we have a guild bank? Run PvP and raid groups? Ally up with other Imps? Fight against Republic FA and other Republics? No.

I'll be honest. This is a long-standing pet peeve of mine. I loathe flip-floppers - people or guilds that flip-flop from one side to the next over and over. In MxO we'd kill a bunch of reds, then one or two would come over on there Zion alt and trash talk. Or vice-versa, someone like Outlaw54 playing both sides and betraying allies. They'd tell the other side where we were and track us that way. In Darkfall it was more about alliances - people were willing to flip-flop alliances when it would suit them, regardless of the race/territory boundaries the game had loosely set up.

I don't want to see some cheesy "Fallen Furious Angels" or "Dark Angels" or "Furious Angels But Not Really But Yes" guild. I don't want the community to say "oh, looks like FA is switching" or "guess FA got tired of losing on the Republic side". Even if we try to be "secretive", some of you have big mouths =P

I'm open to hearing other opinions. Yes, I know my opinions are strong ones, but I do understand that there's a valid argument on the other side. And before we go there, no you cannot multi-guild. You will not be kicked out for having an Imp alt but yes you will get kicked out for joining an Imp guild.

[Fuse]

My thoughts... again. (sick of these yet?)

I take big issue with the concept of "multi guilding = kick" when it would be with FA alts. Not promoted imp as FA guild, but alts of active members. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean others wouldn't like to see a form of it implemented.

I think your fears of splitting the guild up are 100% valid to discuss, but I also think you're already saying "no" to something you can't prove will happen. As I mentioned, I think you're taking your fear and blowing the idea out of proportion. If anything, I think having the ability to NOT be in a guild, and therefore NOT be in TS makes it EASIER to avoid FA members and events. If we had the in game mechanics to see who was on imp side at the time it would be much easier to group up for those people and they would feel more inclined to get on TS. If I decide to lvl an imp, I can simply not tell you my name, ignore you, not get on TS, and miss out on our stuff when I'm needed. Obviously I wouldn't, but if your argument is for awareness of members online, your idea sure doesn't support it. If your argument is about roleplay story, why must this be tied to that? We dictate our story, why can't we exclude it, or we be creative with it. I'm not saying these are solutions, but I'm at least saying they are options to discuss before feeling like you've "broken a promise". Trust me, I won't be offended, and I wouldn't assume others would be either... Your post makes it seem like when I mentioned this you think that I had this vision of what we are now, but on the other side - raids? No. Allies? No. Strong RP events? No. I'm surprised you even thought some would be interested in that. Why would we do that? As far as your comments about what you saw in MxO... I'm hoping you're not assuming that's what you think FA members would do. If you think any of our members would do that, why are they still in FA? Moot point, IMO.

I appreciate you making a thread to get other thoughts on the matter. Thank you.

[NoCry]

As I mentioned in a more private conversation I too dont want to see FA diluted by creating any form of alt guild or imp guild.

As to the question of multi guilding (which incidently I dont think this thread is intended to be about!) - I believe it has been discussed before and decisions taken in that regard - I for one am dead against people having toons in other guilds, for a myriad of reasons but not least because it takes them - and all they can contribute - away from "our" side - if people are not getting what they want from a guild they should leave - not straddle a fence or weaken it by part time dedication.

[Sared]

I have one Imperial character on Jung Ma.
No, I won't tell you it's name.
No, I'm probably not going to play with you on that toon.
Yes, I might gank you in open world PVP for yucks.
Yes, I'm an asshole.

The other seven slots are Republic characters, and are either un-guilded, or in this guild.



We have trouble getting together a respectable raid.
Half of our players can't hold a candle up in PVP.

The expenditure of guild resources in other areas is borderline detrimental to any form of improvement or progression. Until we can change that, I'm still working on this, here, now.

That being said, what you do with your time and your 15$ a month is your business, and I won't judge you one way or the other for how you wish to spend it.


On an unrelated note: the Imperial Agent is by far and away the best storyline this game has to offer, particularly if you enjoyed the mystique and charm of MXO.

[ExternalError]

I'm with sared on this what you do in your own time is your business where the line is drawn is if anyone makes the decision to continue to play on your imp character when FA have an event organised.  Although events are in no way manditory if you are online you should attempt to join in if at all possible, it promotes good guild morale and gives us a chance to play alongside each other more.  

As far as other characters go I also have an imp player which will remain nameless for now and I would encourage anyone who is in this game for story to check out the imp agent story line.  I also have a republic gunslinger not in the guild but I am always on TS if i am in game on any of my characters in or out of guild.  Also I am contactable via facebook and also steam if people dont want to come on TS.

[Mharz]

I just wanted to chime in here with my thoughts to be crystal clear.

1.  I think we all paid for the game and should enjoy the entire game which includes the storyline on the imp side.  I've heard the Agent and the Inq stories are pretty good.  I want to experience them!

2.  I think we all made a commitment to FA and our fellow Angels to make our group the best it can be in PvP, PvE, and have a positive impact on the game and the game's story.  Commitment to a successful group provides a huge amount of satisfaction and value in my opinion.  Not just in gaming but out there in that big real world.  I would ask everyone, from Masters to members to remember that commitment and do something, everyday, to honor and serve that commitment.

3.  In my never to be humble opinion, FA isn't where we need to be just yet.  We don't have a full guild bank.  We don't have a top rated 16 man raid team.  We don't have a top rated PvP team.  We don't have a uniform for all members.  List continues and point made.  FA (as a guild) still needs a lot of work from our members and our masters.  I'm not pointing fingers, assigning blame or any such thing.  We (the faction) just still have a lot more things to do.

I wish I could play and get paid.  I'd spend more time online and grind up more credits/alts/mats/etc.  I have a life, like many of you, and just can't be here full time so I make my own priorities, make sure they mesh with FA's goals and do the best with the time I have.  I'm not sure, at this point, how an alt on the imp side fits.  Sure you can get the class buff when you raid/PvP.  Sure you can play the market on the other side as well as the republic side.  But are you supporting FA with that?  If there is a way then share it up.  I just don't see that the time for this is right now.  Maybe in a few months when we knock out some of the things on our list of goals.

4.  We all pay our $15 a month and should enjoy the game however we like.

5.  As some people have said, posted, suggested, people will go play imps.  I'm okay with that so long as you do not play at the expense of FA members or goals.  I would fully support forming an IMP guild exclusively for FA members when we accomplish more of the items on our FA list of goals.  Until that time, I don't think we should support the dilution (well said Nocry) of FA.

TL; DR version - I'd support an Imp guild when FA is server first with a 16 man raid group, a top PvP team, a full guild bank, a few in game movies, and we're mentioned by an official SWTOR RP post for our actions on the server.  Until these things happen I think we should focus on the core of FA not the imp side.

[JazzyC]

This may come across as me having a go, and attacking people.  But it should not be taken that way, or even close to it.  I've read all the other responses and agree, but just wanted to chime in with my own words.

I paid for this game, and I pay the monthly subscription to continue the privilege. I choose what I do in my spare time.  Therefore I'll be the only one who decides what character I play, how I'll play it, and when I'll play it.
If I want to play my Imp character every day for a week, then I will.  If I want to hunt one of you down (External/Wind/Aracher) and try to kill you for giggles, I will.

But,
I know what being in a guild means, and I'd expect others who are here to understand the role they play in that too.  I think most people appreciate to be a valuable member of a guild, you can really have only one guild.  I wouldn't even expect (or desire) FA to have a sister guild on the Imp side.
My imp is there for the story and to see the world from the other side of the looking glass.  It will never be guilded, and will probably rarely make an impact on the server.  Neither would my Imp be used by FA as a tool for spying or "flip-flopping" (as Tbone puts it)
If the shout goes out that something big is happening, you can bet you arse I'll switch quicker than fat boy eats fries, and lend a hand however it's needed.

[Tecknik]

Are people going to run Imp alts? Yes. I can't stop that, and I have no desire to stop that. But does the guild have to provide in-game functionality to promote and encourage members to spend more time on the Imperial side? No.

I think these couple lines in Tbone's post should probably be made bold as, in my opinion, they are the key to everything.

You're free to create Imperial characters and play on them when you've got free time.  Just don't expect an FA Imperial splinter guild.  You're on your own.

[Strod]

The whole light and dark element just isn't an FA concept we have ever embraced. The Furious Angels are a single entity, all for one and one for all.

You are not going to see splinter factions and side bar gaming from us, It's not going to happen.

My Imperial Characters will never be known to anyone nor will they ever be faction'd with anyone else, however I will agree the Imperial Agent story line is super bad ass.

[Fuse]

I'm fairly surprised at the responses given the split last meeting. The consensus seems to be keep imp alts private and limit grouping to personal decisions (other imps, or unknown FA). Very different than what I was expecting, but I'm glad we got thoughts written down.

[likwidtek]

I like the idea of playing around on the imp side to see the sights and get a feel for how the other half lives but I don't need a guild or a guild bank to do that.  You can solo the entire story and for everything else you can pug, ask on TS or IM friends to group up.  I can't imagine why we'd need some sophisticated method of organization on that side.  I can't imagine anyone is going to be doing preformed PvP warzone, or 8-16 raid content.  I imagine if most people are like me, they're going to roll a character, get to 50, see the story and all the sites, get the legacy bonuses and go back to their main.  I just look at it as a downtime activity but nothing to be taken serious.

I'm focusing on crafting for the guild and getting my main maxed out in everything I can right now, I dunno if or when I'll even get around to playing on the imp side but it's not a priority for me personally.  But there's nothing wrong with people playing an alt on the imp side and surely no one needs to hide it or be covert about it.

When I hear "You can't tell me what I can't do with my game and my $15 a month" I feel like Tbone's statement is being demonized.  As I understand he's simply saying that We're not going to be creating a sister or splinter guild on the imp side.  Period.  So, that said do what ever you want with your $15 a month.  But don't expect to get FA's blessing for creating a home for you over there.  You're on your own.  I fully agree with that. If that makes you mad or you feel that this will drive people away or drive people over to the Imperial side, well they should leave then.  They're obviously not focused on FA's goals and their desire to play in an Imp guild outweighs their desire to be in FA.  Which is OK.  It's just not a right fit.

Also, multiguilding is strictly forbidden.  We don't make exceptions.  We've asked people to leave for this before, especially if they are dishonest about it.  I totally agree with this.  I have no idea why this is even being questioned.  We make this clear to everyone from the get go.  Again, if you disagree with it, raise your voice and be heard.  Argue your point and let us know why this is a bad rule if you feel that's the case.  Everyone here is pretty open minded.  Even as stubborn as Tbone is, he's always kept an ear open and nearly always has bowed to logic from my observations.  So, speak up.  You never know.

Anyway, the only thing Tbone is saying here is, like tecknik quoted,

Are people going to run Imp alts? Yes. I can't stop that, and I have no desire to stop that. But does the guild have to provide in-game functionality to promote and encourage members to spend more time on the Imperial side? No.

So do what you want!  

In any case, I would like to hear from other people that agree with Fuse.  Last night he indicated that the majority of guild wanted this, so please speak up and be heard.  Nothing is set in stone and we want to be as open minded and logical as possible.  Maybe there are strong arguments that I haven't heard yet.

[likwidtek]

I'm fairly surprised at the responses given the split last meeting. The consensus seems to be keep imp alts private and limit grouping to personal decisions (other imps, or unknown FA). Very different than what I was expecting, but I'm glad we got thoughts written down.

No one is saying you have to keep your imp alts a secret.  I think that's a personal decision that Sared for example is doing.  More than likely so he can be a total asshole on the imp side and a bad reputation doesn't get connected to him.  heh.

But if I am understanding it correctly, keeping it a secret or covert is totally a personal decision.  What I NEVER want to see is someone playing their imp alt and not being honest about it.  That's totally not what this is about.  I don't think anyone is going to be looked down on for playing an Imp.  That's not what this is about either, this entire conversation is simply about "Will FA officially endorse, create or sponsor an Imperial Guild.  Yes or No."  And so far the answer is a resounding no.

Granted, no one else is speaking up.

[Fuse]

Just a quick correction, I never indicated that "the majority" wanted this, but it received a generally positive response at the meeting. Perhaps most who disagreed just kept their mouths shut at the time, which is fine. I'm glad it'e here for the discussion.
With that said though, I feel like an idiot when I try to argue for something that I thought was at least received well and only see the opposite when brought in an official capacity on the forums. It's not the first time I've experienced this and it's discouraging for me personally. I have a lvl20 and lvl3 imp who I doubt I'll ever play, but that is because I wont solo them. My fun is based on groups, and I refuse to join anyone other than FA. Now if I did know who was on that side from FA, it might be different and I may play there for the benefits, but this pretty much shoots it down for me.

Also, the conversation of "multi-guilding" got out of hand. Guild other than FA = kick. no shit. not sure where that came from. I considered this an extension of FA, only of FA people.

[Longboard]

I agree with Fuse, Mharz and TBone.   :S

Every since the MxO days, Tbone has always had a reputation for having a vision of what he wants for a guild and sticking to it. I knew this and I was not even in FA in MxO. I admire and respect Tbone for this. He is not wishy washy, he knows what he wants. That being said, there are a lot of valid points made, on both sides.

I also agree with Fuse that it would make it easier to have some organization and that making it easier for me is what I would want, as a player. I have no interest in Raiding or making any other type of impact on the Imp side of the game. However, I might like to enjoy a couple of FP's and that sucks with PUGs, not matter what side of the universe you are on. Personally, my main reason is to enjoy the story and get some of their races up to 50 so I can enjoy them on the Republic side.

I also agree with Mharz that we need to get FA to a certain place in game before we would ever consider a chapter on the other side. We still have a lot of growing to do.

Quick fix -----> I suggest making an Imp TS channel and if someone wants to play on that side, they don't have to go from channel, to channel, to channel in TS, bothering people, asking if they want to play their Imps. I think this would be a good quick solution and would support both arguments for now.

In my humble, FA is the best guild in SWTOR. My son (Seoni) and I are members for life. We bought the T-shirt, I have the mug.....members for life.

FYI....if you want to stay anonymous on the Imp side, which I think is totally unnecessary by the way, you need to shut of the display option of your legacy name. That is a dead giveaway every time.

[Fuse]

You're not a member for life unless you get an FA tattoo.