Serious about PvP? Here's what I want to develop.

[Fuse]

Here are my thoughts on the matters, and instead of going "IT's COMING! It's COMING!" like in the last few weeks, I'll throw this out there for everyone to see. I've been working on ideas independently and hope at least some of this gets some traction with everyone.


1. Organized structure.[/u]
This has already been in the process, and I know Sared has been working with some of you on this, though no posts have really been made about it yet. This includes T's work on getting a schedule setup, and Sareds work on getting Class leaders.

Class Leaders:
Having a point person to goto for information on tactics, loadouts, and gear questions for every class. If you have a question they can't answer, they should know who to go to.
They should be well versed in PvP mechanics as it relates to their class. In some cases, this person won't just be used by people of the same class, but by other classes. For instance, I know the shadow kinetic and infiltration specs very well, so if I want to know how I can help my healer, I would ask the sage lead. If I want to understand what I can do to help a smuggler, I'll ask the smuggler lead. Want to know why XXX class kills you so easily, and how to avoid it? Class Leaders should be able to help. These Class leaders should converse often with other class leaders. Information sharing and the desire to know other classes will be an important part of this job.

Gear Based Priority:
This is part of T's explanation of how this fits in with team priority, thought when I first started talking about this with leadership, it was based on expertise. Same principle, though.
Original notes:
500 Expertise min. [Arbitrary amount - can be discussed] This has two effects - First, it's obvious assistance in damage, defense, and healing in PvP. Second, by the time someone has acquired 500 exptertise, they should have more than a working knowledge of their class within the warzones. By this time, they should know what to expect and where all the key points are.

2. Teams
My ideal Team
Here is what I prefer to see on every team I'm a part of...

Healers - 2
Tank - 2
DPS - 2
Stealth - 2
Guard/Taunt - 2
Rescue (Friendly) - 1
Force Pull (Ememy) - 1
Leap - 1

Some classes meet multiple roles, for instance Kinetic Shadows cover Tank, Stealth, Taunt, and Force Pull Roles. So in almost every situation, you can fill all of these with 5-6 members. (Sage, Sage, Shadow, Guardian, Sentinel, Scoundrel, Empty, Empty)

Team Roles
I would love to see us get to a point that we identify specific roles in PvP and we each own them. For instance, Lith and I are both shadow tanks and we've gotten in a pattern now in HB matches. Without saying anything he guards me and I know that I'm getting the ball and he's backing me up at mid. We already have these roles without documenting them, but I would love to flush these out and have it written for everyone to understand.

-Team captain(s) (Only one that I'm dead set on developing)
For every warzone, there should be a primary Captain. Their responsibility will be to organise the gameplan, and call directions as the warzone progresses. Some responsibilities of the captain may be to ask for updates on certain parts of a map, call certain people to move or hold, call out guarding pairs, call/mark targets etc... The team should have an understanding that when everyone calls orders or does their own thing, it can lead to a loss - and if something the captain says doesn't jive, it should be explained quickly so a plan B can be formulated. There will be some situations where the captain will not see everything that is going on, so one of the most important things will be to have clear communication from and to the captain. The goal of the captain isn't to bark orders. It is to recognize and manage negative situations and direct solutions before they evolve into a loss of an objective. (For instance, in many of my Alderaan pug groups I end up on a point defending with a healer. When another point needs help, I'll specifically tell the healer to go instead of me because generally, healers are more valuable.)

-Runners
Force speeders/Sentinels who need to get to a location fast. On HB, these are your initial ball carriers. On Alderan, these are your initial cappers/disrupters (east). On VS, these people should be some of the first through a door while others slow imps.

-Ball Carriers
Tanks with a healer and a guard are nearly unstoppable.

-Ball Receivers
Usually stealth classes that can move to forward points in HB easily. (Though realistically, when you're dieing any green name is what you look for...)

3. Tactics
"Tactics" is kind of all encompassing, so it's a bit general... Most of it comes from experience with your class and within WZs, and how we interact with eachother - because we all have different personalities that affect communication differently. Now I'm getting ahead of my notes...

Communication Tactics
Communication will be key to success in warzones. How many times has a bomb been planted because the person watching the door died and didn't call out for help and no one was watching the minimap? It happens, but if that person simply says "1 inc", "I'm dieing/dead", or "west door, right now!" a cap can be easily avoided. This becomes much more important on Alderann where the distance to travel is much greater. It will be the Captains job to assure everyone is talking - he/she needs to consistently know what's going on, and when he/she doesn't, they need to ask.

Class Specific Tactics
Here is where the Class Leaders will have key input. Did you shadows know that you can pull a stunned imp? When is it ok to NOT use your CC breaker? What rotation do you use in XXX situation? These are the things I want to start seeing and hearing more of. Just last night we had a discussion about sentinels and transcendence and how that affects groups vs. ops and how it can lead to an enemy beating a force speeder to a location. From that discussion I wanted to get together with a Sentinel and test some things like stacking mechanics.

Warzone Specific Tactics
Discussions on "In XXX WZ, do this to start....XXX when this happens...etc". One example is the 2X2 strat, or even my 2X1 strat on Alderaan. 2 west, 2 east, rest mid. This has been highly successful, so let's get it out there and known for FA.  Lets test when this works best. tank/heals east, or is it better to have the heals with the larger group? Lets test that, or at least have the discussion.

Videos
I am currently making videos! This is why sometimes I'm in game but not in TS. So far I have about 8-10 things I want to record and get out there for us; I've already gotten about 4-5 done. These are quick shots of things I use as a Shadow and Scoundrel in PvP. Some things are my East run on Alderaan, pointing out the imp split, the 20second timing on the far rightside firepit allowing a non-force speeder to hit right elbow while just missing the firepit, or something as quick as the VS Gap Jump. Those of us that have been heavy in WZs may know this stuff like the back of our hands, but not everyone does. Hell, I didn't even realize the transcendence thing until early this morning. (By the way, it takes a force speeder 14 second to get the ball in HB if done right, a sentinel team about 13, and 25 seconds for a non-force speeder to get to an elbow, so 11 second of survival with 5 imps hitting you is ideal to keep it moving and for a score in the first minute. I say 5 imps because I have two stuns, and should always have other rep to stun as well.)


=============================

Purpose of this thread... Here's what I want from you.

1. Overall thoughts on what I've outlined here...

2. Team roles: What else can we add. Consider it a job that you can repeatedly go into a WZ and practice.

3. What do you want demonstrated in Video? A Class ability demonstrated, a warzone strat, or something else I'm not coming up with? Keep in mind I'm trying to keep these under a minute each. No one wants to watch me demo something that takes 5 seconds and then see me fight for 2 minutes. (I know this from my livestream)

4. I've only mentioned this in passing to T, but would others be interested in having a subforum here specifically for this info on PvP mechanics? I would hate to create a bunch of threads and have the info get lost, but I also don't want to request a new subforum if it doesn't get used and updated by everyone. Preferences?


I want everyone to have input on what are the best ways to get things done. None of this is doctrine, and as our PvP master, Sared will be overseeing much of this if it develops, but without our members input and effort, nothing he could do would be worth doing.

[Faiden]

Overall Fuse, let me say that this is an awesome thread. As you mentioned earlier, pairing up two classes that work really well together such as a shadow tank and a healer defending a point in Alderaan. There should be at least a dozen pairs of classes that synchronize well together. It feels as though a tank and healer is your best bet for survivability but what about the best dps combo? Etc etc

Should there ever be a point of continued silence within the channel? I don't think so, even if nothing is going on saying something like "east is clear" is better than nothing. Having a general overview of class mechanics is also a good idea. If you see an enemy player starting a devastating combo than interrupt it, be careful with your interrupts and CC break. We also need to have a focus target, namely the team captain so when he or she calls out a target, we can all target them and keel them! That's all I got for now.

PS: HAPPY BIRTHDAY FUSE!!!

[Fuse]

Thanks for the birthday wishes...

I'd also like to expand what you said on "General overview of class mechanics". In many cases this means knowing your enemy better than yourself. I never start a 1v1 unless I see what class they are, and I make decisions based on that. For instance, I use to never start on an operative unless I knew I would have the first hit. I also know that I can melt marauders. Healing sorcs are fine as long as there are no other imps around. Now the class that I know probably least about and have the hardest time with are Juggernauts, so I'm going to try and focus on why I have an issue with them.

So if I see a healer and a jug trying to cap my point and I'm alone, instead of pick a fight I know I'll lose, I'll mind maze them until backup arrives. This prolongs the points, and leads to a win. Too many people will start a fight that doesn't make sense for the end goal.

[Tbone]

Looks good so far. Figuring out what we need on a team is something I've definitely been trying to figure out. With Transcendence's increased movement speed, a Sentinel is practically mandatory now, for instance.

I also like the idea of having a team leader, like a raid leader. I figured that was implied, but it's nice to point out so that everyone will be used to following orders.

[Azarov]

Great post Fuse.

 I would also like to add that as it is important for each of us to know our role in WZ's, in my opinion it is also good practice for others to know what your role is as well.

 For example, I go into HB with one mission, to stick as close to mid as possible and do my best to help control it. While doing this I do not pay much attention to where my other teammates are after they leave mid as I am concentrating on keeping the opposing team occupied and slowed down to help the ball carriers get ever closer to the goal.

 With that said, I have been in MANY HB games (and some of you have witnessed this) where I am fighting off 3-4 imps at mid and then all of sudden I am passed the ball. I understand that sometimes I may be the only option to pass to, but this usually leads to a Gunslinger who is not prepared to run the ball, running around with his head cut off fighting CC's and searching in panic for someone to pass to while keeping an eye in his squishy health bar. This usually ends in a reset of the ball or an interception and a dead mid defender; leaving an opportunity for the opposing team to grab and run the ball out.

For those Wz's that my fellow FA members have taken this into account, it has lead to a more successful match.

[Fuse]

Soooooooooo what else guys?

[Tbone]

Communication Tactics
Communication will be key to success in warzones. How many times has a bomb been planted because the person watching the door died and didn't call out for help and no one was watching the minimap? It happens, but if that person simply says "1 inc", "I'm dieing/dead", or "west door, right now!" a cap can be easily avoided. This becomes much more important on Alderann where the distance to travel is much greater. It will be the Captains job to assure everyone is talking - he/she needs to consistently know what's going on, and when he/she doesn't, they need to ask.

To me, this is probably the most important thing. You should know what's important information and what isn't. You shouldn't be afraid to be vocal about  your situation, but you shouldn't distract from vital information by having outbursts of things that aren't needed.

When we have a full group going, most of the time we lose it's because someone failed to relay information until it was too late. Announcing that you are dead and you were the only one at a point is not enough time to save the point.

Another important thing is calling targets. You should chose a focus target for whatever group you are rolling with (I prefer a melee DPS or tank, as they are easier to spot and it is harder for them to switch targets). That person should be calling out targets for their group so that they can be burned down quickly. There are exceptions to this and you should know when that is (needing to stun a group, slow targets without killing them, distractions, etc.), but in basic defense/offense, targets should be called out and dispatched quickly. You've all had it done to you at some point: "They're all targeting me! I can't even move!". That's what the other team should be saying about us.

When you find yourself on the ropes, the key is not to fall apart. The biggest flaw of a losing team once they start losing is not attacking as a group - they trickle in one at a time and just continue to get burned down fast. When trying to capture an objective, you need to come in full force. It's usually worth it to hang back and wait for the group.

An example, I was doing Novare Coast and all looked lost. We had been pounding the middle trying to get it back, but they weren't budging. Finally Broin, Lithium, and myself all hit the spawn around the same time. I quickly gave the order for the three of us to switch to West (we were fighting Republic) at the same time. With the three of us sticking together, we were able to quickly dispatch the two guards before they could call for backup and cap the point with 6% left to go. From there we came back from 100%/6% to win it!

If you ever find yourself fighting as an individual with no idea what everyone else is doing, then the group isn't doing it right.

[Erathaol]

*WARNING: SAGE SPECIFIC POST AHEAD*
I know you wanted something a bit more general, but we have a lot of Sages in FA and many of us are still lost after 1.2 and doing things wrong.


Now that I've had some time to play my Sage in more than just a handful of WZs since Patch 1.2, I think it's high time that we re-define the Sage's role in organized PvP.

Before 1.2, I played the hybrid AoE build and did tons of damage AND was able to keep the healers split amongst too many targets to keep any one alive, forcing them into "selfish healing mode" to keep themselves up.  That was my role, as a AoE DPS/harasser.
Now that our damage has been all but stripped from us, it is my opinion that if you are still trying to output high damage, you are doing it wrong.  Horribly wrong, in most cases.

We are no longer the damage dealers, hell we never really were.  It was merely a happy coincidence with the hybrid build that we could harass and still kick like a mule.
TK is no good for damage, as you are rooted to the spot and will be interrupted constantly by competent opponents.
Balance is no good for damage, as a SINGLE cleanse will remove your DoTs (your mainstay damage).  Any competent team WILL cleanse your DoTs, effectively neutering your DPS as you spam TT and Project.

So where does leave us poor Sages who aren't healers?  CC!  
I've been of the opinion from the very beginning that a Sage is a support utility class, and with 1.2 that has finally become clear to many others as well.
I'm still working on my build, but I'm currently running a 0/17/24.  http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600ZccMRbMbZcMfRsMkd.1

We have so many tools in our belt that we absolutely MUST utilize if we are able to contribute to our team.  First, if we are engaging in a 1v1, we have FAILED.  It is the height of stupidity for a Sage to ever fight a 1v1.  DON'T DO IT.

Let's look at WZ specific things.

Huttball
To my mind, we have two viable options in Huttball.  Middle control and bucket brigade.  
If attempting to control the middle, you need at least another teammate that can output burst damage.  Your job is to ensure the other team does NOT get the ball after a reset.  Force Lift, Force Stun, Force Slow, Force Wave, and Force Armor collapse.  Assuming you hit exactly one enemy with Force Wave and exactly one with your Force Armor collapse (through damage or manual detonation), you have racked up a total of 20 seconds of the enemy NOT grabbing the ball, of course split amongst 4 targets.  Yes, they have CC breakers they can use, but if you force a CC break you have also accomplished your goal.  If your team can't grab the ball after all that work, tough luck it's certainly not your fault.
Your other option involves almost nothing but CC, Force Speed, and Rescue.  You are merely a way of getting the ball (or preferably the ball carrier) closer to the line.  Run your ass to an elbow or other advantageous location, and slap the shit out of anyone in your way with CC.  Sure you won't have unlimited time to stand around, but I can GUARANTEE you'll at least be able to hop to the elbow and Rescue your ball carrying buddy closer.
In Huttball, damage is for suckers.  CC those bastards and help your friendly neighborhood Shadows get the ball over the line.


Voidstar
Just like Huttball, you have options here but it all comes down to CC and harassment.  Ignoring the painfully obvious (hit the guy planting/AoE the guys trying to disarm), the most important thing to focus on here is LoS.  If you are focused, you are dead.  If you are dead, you are useless.  Minimize your time in the respawn!
Personally, when I play VS I focus on two targets.  Melee DPS and Healer, with Healers being #1 priority.  Your job is not to kill the healers one by one (leave that to the Sentinels or Scoundrels), but to do your very best to reduce their healing.  Interrupt, interrupt, interrupt!  Hard interrupt aside, your Force Wave and Force Armor collapse do NOT fill the Resolve bar fully.  My method of choice when dealing with a single healer is Mind Snap > Force Wave (if close enough) > Force Stun/Lift.  You've just interrupted three heals and bought yourself 4.5-11 seconds of healing-free murder for your teammates.  Adding additional healers to the mix spreads you out a bit more, but if you stick to them you'll be WAY more help to your team than if you were trying to burn down a target with DPS.
With your outrageous amounts of CC, Marauders are your bitch.  Make no mistake, a determined Marauder WILL kill you without assistance from your team, but you can at least slow him down significantly.  Every second a DPS spends not hurting your team contributes to your victory.  Don't worry about killing the sod, just focus on pissing him off.  LoS, slows, knockbacks, roots, and stuns allow you to kite that bastard around while humming Yakety Sax to your heart's content.

Alderaan/Denova
I lumped these together because a Sage's role is basically the same in both.  I'll split between attack and defend, for your viewing pleasure.
When defending a capture node, DO NOT BE ALONE.  Sages have no stealth detection and they die instantly when two stealthers come along.  I was recently in a 4-man FA Denova group and was guarding middle alone (stupid mistake on my part) while the others rushed to capture east for a come-from-behind victory.  I was jumped by two Shadows (Rep vs Rep game) and died as fast as it took me to say "Two stealthers mid, I'm dying."  They took the point and won the game.  You can't call Incoming when you can't see them!
Assuming you haven't been left alone, when enemies come to your point your job is.. you guessed it!  CC!  Lock them all down, prevent healers from healing, and THEN burn down whatever target your friend(s) are attacking.  If they outnumber you, it's time for hit-and-run.  Your single job then becomes preventing them from capturing the point and waiting for the cavalry.  Don't be afraid to run from the node, so long as you can get back and tag the guys capping the node.

When attacking a point, your priority is to again lock down healers and CC the enemies.  Easy peezy, and if you need me to go over specifics you really need help with reading comprehension.
But right at the start of the match, assuming we are in a coordinated group of FA, you'll be part of the group heading East.  Transcendence + Force Speed = Republic Node.  If you meet Imps on the way, it's almost as easy.  Wait for your handy dandy Shadow to mind-maze the enemy closest to the point (DON'T TOUCH HIM), and you Speed to intercept the rest.  Blow all your CC on the punks (manually detonating Force Armor if needed) and your buddies will surely have captured the point by the time the enemy arrives.  A 3-man Sage/Shadow/Sentinel team is a guaranteed capture against anything short of 6+ Imps or a mirrored Sorc/Ass/Mara team +1.  Hell, even if they devote that many men to stop us East, we still have it made West and Mid!


I realize most of this is common sense and I took FOREVER to essentially say "CC > DPS," but this is something I really think we need to work on.  Sages got hit hard with 1.2, and we need to adapt to survive.  Get on it, men!

As always, if I'm totally off-base with any advice given, feel free to mock and berate me.  I'll cry, but I'll learn.

[Fuse]

I know it's a bit delayed form me, but was trying to avoid having a third of the posts here to be from me...

Erathaol, nice post and a different way of approaching the sage than I would have thought. CCs are a game maker/breaker in WZs obviously, and I think the hardest part is communicating the CCs and breaks when they happen to assure someone else doesn't break the breakable ones.




I have to be honest guys, posts from just 4 members, two of which I was expecting due to their heavy WZing, is very discouraging to me. 24 people signed up to the RWZ teams. So everyone is good with their classes? Everyone is good with their WZs performance? Everyone is good with our tactics/keywords/strategies? No one has anything new to add to WZ fights? No one has anything to add about how the imps are doing?

What do you guys need to generate interest? What makes some of you not PvP, and can we help with those issue? What help do you need?
What are we doing that works well? (again, nice post Erathaol)

I want us to be successful, so what can I do for you guys?

[Tbone]

Note: Now that target markers are bindable, you should have at least three of them bound to keys!

[Mharz]

So everyone is good with their classes? Everyone is good with their WZs performance? Everyone is good with our tactics/keywords/strategies? No one has anything new to add to WZ fights? No one has anything to add about how the imps are doing?

What do you guys need to generate interest? What makes some of you not PvP, and can we help with those issue? What help do you need?
What are we doing that works well? (again, nice post Erathaol)

I want us to be successful, so what can I do for you guys?

I completely understand my class and role in a WZ.  I don't win every match but who does?  Generally I roll with a tanking build with some dps pieces to up my damage output a bit.  Always in tanking form with a shield for damage reduction and survivability.  I measure my success by damage mitigated, medals, and total damage in that order.

What makes me not PvP more... resolve is broken.  Every time I pvp, without fail, I'm stunned with a full resolve bar.  I burn a cc on someone with an empty bar and nothing happens.  Force push on someone with no resolve...nothing happens.  Yet somehow, agents still stun lock me for days and when I'm finally out, at 20% health and burn every defensive CD I have I get zapped and stunned by lightning bitch #4 (because there are ALWAYS AT LEAST 4) and killed.

When I play a game, I like to do things,,good or bad, not just sit there and twitch while some cheap, no skill asshat, chain stuns me into watching my own death like a tragic movie.  There is just too much cc in this game for me most times.  It leads to frustration and general lack of fun.  Sometimes I can tolerate it.  Lately, not as much.

So you really can't help me.  As much as I wish you could.  Fix resolve, get dual spec in game, get rid of cc's, or show me how to hack my client so I'm immune to cc's.  Until then PvP will be some thing I do part time or when the guild needs me.

That said, if you like PvP in Stun Wars: The Old Republic, you should PvP with Fuse.  He does make it fun.

[Fuse]

CC sucks; that's a valid concern. I'm wondering what your teammates were doing while you were twitching away. There are very few classes (players, really) who can go toe-to-toe against operatives. The key would be sticking with someone who has CC of their own, guarders, and/or healers.

On the topic of Operatives... It is VERY important to get the drop on them - so other scoundrels or shadows are the best defense against them. Pop them out of stealth and they can't hit their 6sec stun/death spike. As soon as you engage them or immediately after they're unstunned (if you choose to do so), pop your defensive CDs. They'll drop their highest dmg attacks first.


Who else knows tips for guardians in a cc battle?

[NoCry]

dont they have cleanse and camouflage? - coupled with a cc breaker does that not stop the cc hell?

[Erathaol]

I too am concerned with the frustrating Resolve bar and how wishy-washy it can be at time, but I like to remain positive that it will EVENTUALLY be fixed to a sufficient degree.  But at the very least, we can assume that it's just as twitchy for our enemies as it is for us.  We may only remember and focus on the time WE get chain-CCed to death with full resolve and when our CC fails to affect our target, but rest assured that the Imps are just as pissed about us CCing them to death regardless of the stupid resolve bar.
It sucks and I totally understand; see you when/if it gets fixed!

One thing to add with CC is that multiple classes have a targeted cleanse.  Sages have a force-only one so it won't help against Operatives, but a good healer can nip that CC in the bud right quick if done right.

Which brings us back to Tbone's posts about communication.  I've PvPed (not too much recently, too many Beta weekend events!) with a nice variety of groups, and there is a huge difference in how each group communicated.  
When there is a clear leader, either a faction officer like Tbone or one who is heavily invested in and experienced with WZs like Fuse, it's my experience that the group typically shuts up and listens to their calls.  We often need to be reminded over and over again that the leader can't see everything and we need to be feeding them information, and when we are prompted we do so.  If we aren't being nagged constantly, we (especially when losing) lapse into silence which hinders our performance.
Without a clear leader coming from one of those two categories, there is very often simply not enough communication at all.  I don't know of a magical solution to this, but my best guess is familiarity.  Get used to playing with each other AND TALKING, and we'll be peachy.  Practice, practice, practice!  If there is no "leader," arbitrarily choose one!  A less talented leader calling the shots is much better than none at all.  With no leader and no communication, we aren't a team at all, and I've been in far too many FA warzones where if tags were hidden everyone would think we were a PuG.

As for tips for Guardians, I have only this.  To me, WZs and MOBAs (like LoL) have many similarities.  In Star Wars WZs, tanks function less like MMO tanks and more like MOBA tanks.  If our Guadians are jumping into the enemy group, blowing all their CC and defensive cooldowns, and being a general nuisance, that is WONDERFUL!  I WANT to see the enemy burning CC on the tank.  The more cooldowns spent on the tank, the less available to be used on the decently fragile DPSers.  Yes Imps, please focus the Guardian and ignore the Sentinel ramming his glowsticks up your ass or the Gunslinger popping your healers like balloons!  

It may be hard to swallow for our poor tanks, but you are the scapegoats and buttmonkeys of the group.  You get your asses kicked in in our stead, and the slower you die the better.
At least that's my opinion, I'm sure there are other ways to play a Guardian than the team martyr.

[Mharz]

don't they have cleanse and camouflage?

No and no.

One CC breaker stops the slide one time.  Maybe I could spec into the reduced CD on my CC breaker if only I had another spec for that.  (Insert rant about no dual spec)

And yeah that whole "get the drop on the operative" is basically exactly the opposite of everything a Guardian does/should be doing.  How do you beat them?  Spam Freezing Force.  You can do that.. and maybe root them if you spec for it.  Of course if you do anything other than PvP you NEVER talent that way.  (Insert rant about no dual spec)

To the point of being the target, I'm totally comfortable being focused.  You can't AOE taunt very well when you're not in the middle of the group of baddies.  I VERY much enjoy having 3-4 people focused on me.  What I can't stand is not being able to play the game.  (Insert rant about CC's making the game not fun.)  

I guess the solution is a pocket healer with purges.