Author Topic: Sage DPS build, any comments? (Read 2176 times)

Ominari · « **on:** January 28, 2012, 12:22:14 am »

Link: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600ZfRM0dZfrbosRkrc.1

Seer : 0 Points
Telekinetics : 13 points
Balance : 28 points

Telekinetic
3/3 Inner Strength
2/2 Mental Longevity
2/3 Clamoring Force
1/1 Mind's Eye
2/2 Disturb Mind
1/1 Telekinetic Wave
2/2 Psychic Projection

Balance
3/3 Empowered Throw
2/2 Jedi Resistance
2/2 Will of the Jedi
2/2 Pinning Resolve
2/2 Focused Insight
1/1 Force in Balance
3/3 Psychic Barrier
1/1 Telekinetic Balance
2/2 Containment
1/2 Mind Ward
1/1 Presence of Mind
1/1 Force Supression
2/2 Drain Thoughts
2/2 Assertion
3/3 Mental Scarring

Reason for build
I've talked with a lot of sages on other servers who are dpsing for HM and Nightmare modes.

A lot of the builds varried in points in the Balance tree, though after careful concideration, I neglected getting Project, as the cost of it is too high for the damage.

As raid bosses can't be stunned, there was no need for Sever Force, however, as the damage on Force in Balance is high on crits, limiting the build before getting to it seemed to work perfectly fine.

Within the telekinetics tree, the use of the 3rd tier traits, really shines a lot of light to Sage dps in my opinion. For one, having a Telekinetic Throw channel 2x faster (also damage ticks being the same way), was pretty amazing in a lift of damage. On another note to that, the Proc of Presnece of Mind, you can now alternate between Telekinetic Wave and Disturbance when it pops up.

-----------------------------------

If you have any feedback on where points need to be moved, feel free to let me know what points need to be moved and the reason behind it. I am trying to get a static build for our Sage DPS for raids. Our healing builds are a set cookie-cutter build that everyone uses.

Keeloth · « **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2012, 02:09:40 am »

I like the overall structure, though there's a few things I'd personally change:

- Jedi resistance doesn't seem worth it. We're squishy, an extra 2% reduction isn't going to make all that much difference. To give you an idea...Ana is fairly beefy for most Sages I've seen, with 17k health. 2% of that is...340. 2 Talent points for 340 health is pretty worthless.

- Comparatively, the 10% crit chance to telekinetic throw (the bread and butter of a DPS sage) you get from Critical Kinesis (torhead is bugged and shows the Shadow talent, http://torguild.net/calculator/jedi-consular/sage/ shows the correct one) is golden. I'd move those points from Jedi Resistance to Critical Kinesis.

- It's true, Project is expensive for it's damage and slow to boot. However, it's one of the few non-DoT abilities we have that can be used on the move. For bosses where you have to do a lot of moving around, it's nice to have the extra damage. It's not vital, but it's certainly more helpful than..

- Pinning resolve. As you say yourself, raid bosses can't be stunned. Being able to stun 10 second faster isn't that much of a help. The extra lift you get is nice, but not vital since weak and standard mobs go down fairly fast anyways.

-Mind ward may actually help you vs. some of the more vicious dots out there, but again you run into the problem that you're trying to bail out a rowboat with a sieve. In addition, its placement on the skill tree has it competing with all the talents that really increase your damage, which is your role.

-On the telekinetics side, I like what you've done. Most builds I see (and the one I currently use) just put 3 in clamoring force and 3 in Inner Strength, but you put 2 in Longevity as well, which is great for raid bosses. I would take that point out of Mind's Eye and put it into Telekinetic defense, though. The only abilities you'll use to benefit from the range increase from Eye are Telekinetic Wave and Disturbance, and since you'll want to be in range of telekinetic throw anyways...Meanwhile, that extra 10% protection from your bubble will help make up for losing Jedi Resistance and Mind Ward from the Balance tree.

Overall, here's how I would modify the build: http://torguild.net/calculator/jedi-consular/sage/?p=000000000000000000032202010120000000003020322131201122300

Sared · « **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2012, 03:30:10 am »

Speaking from my limited experience with Sages, and coming from the perspective of single-target, boss DPS...

I strongly agree with Keeloth on his choice with Upheaval. That's a pretty big/reliable percentage for a good chunk of extra damage.

I also think that Mind Ward may have a little more value due to unavoidable, raid-wide static damage being taken, but that's a small choice that needs to be made regarding utility/survivability.

Regarding Sever Force, while the stun may not affect a boss-immune target, are they still affected by the DoT?

Ominari · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2012, 07:06:49 am »

I'd disagree with Keeloth's Telekinetic tree... 10% more absorb from force armor? That's less than the 2% I had in the Balance tree. In turn, pushing back to this build and will re-modify the initial thread once a standardized build is agreed upon.

http://db.darthhater.com/skill_calc/jedi_consular/sage/#::e2f3e8fe3fe2f6ef3e2fedef21

If a passive damage reduction of ~350 per hit isn't worthwhile, an increase more minor on a casted ability, is worse. I'll go with the above link to fully cut out the reduction and focus on damage.

My logic was looking towards the overall in boss fights. If every hit dealt ~350 less damage, including aoe's, the overall reduction lightens the load on all healers. I'd honestly rather have a passive damage reduction than one that is cast on me and institutes a debuff immediately after application.

In addition, the addition 2 mob CC, we can CC elites and strong mobs with the aoe affect of it, making encounters with many elites, and strongs, a hell of a lot easier, reducing damage incoming, by a ton.

Keeloth · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2012, 10:05:21 am »

The 10% on force armor isn't something to be taken so much because it's vital, and more because it's more useful than a 5 meter extension on 2 abilities, only 1 of which you'll be using. I believe force armor absorbs 2000 damage unbuffed? That's an effective 200 extra HP per shield there. As I said, not vital, but more useful than the alternatives.

Keep in mind, that's a passive damage reduction of 340 per 17,000 points of damage you take. I agree that it'd be worth it if it was every hit, but as it is, getting hit with a 5k hit you'll take 100 less damage. I don't think it's enough of a difference for the healers to notice, honestly.

The extra lift doesn't affect elites. I think you're right about it affecting strongs, but really, those aren't much harder to burn down than normals.

The new build looks pretty good! Though as I said above, I do think you'll get more mileage out of TK Defense than Mind's Eye.

Quote from: "Sared"

I also think that Mind Ward may have a little more value due to unavoidable, raid-wide static damage being taken, but that's a small choice that needs to be made regarding utility/survivability.

Regarding Sever Force, while the stun may not affect a boss-immune target, are they still affected by the DoT?

Mind Ward I'm torn on. As I said it competes with some of the best DPS talents in the tree, but from a raiding perspective it can have use in some situations. Maybe a situational talent for a DoT heavy raid boss?

Yes, the boss would still be hit by the dot, but it's a pretty lackluster one and requires you to spend an extra 2 points in the tree to get it, removing the option of Telekinetic Wave, which is an awesome ability.

Strod · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2012, 03:45:59 pm »

This is going to be your ideal raid spec.

http://torguild.net/calculator/jedi-consular/sage/

Rotation:

Weakened Mind>PoM Mind Crush>PoM Telekinetic Wave>Force in Balance> Telekinetic Throw.

This variation is what I use and it's IMO the best because it gives you what you honestly need the most in a raid and not what you think you need in terms or 1-2% if I go this way etc.

In all honesty, if you learn the fight you can minimize damage without having to bicker over certain abilities that lock you out of the most ideal build which is posted above.

In the end it all comes down to what you prefer, however I like having a multiple CC with a max shield and some periodic damage reduction. You shouldn't be using Project as it's a wasted 3 points in upheaval, when it can be used in other useful places. Project is a waste of force and you don't need the extra 100 force because you have noble sacrifice. Which if timed right and you stay out of the dumb stuff in raids will give you back force when you need it and you'll be healed by the healers anyways.

There is a lot more logic I would like to type out, but I know people are going to say my build is dumb because of abc. Just remember play what you enjoy. However the above build is the best "version" of the top dps build for sages if you like being helpful to the raid. IE, less damage taken, more CC and refined dps.

Keeloth · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2012, 07:26:10 pm »

Quote from: "Strod"

This is going to be your ideal raid spec.

http://torguild.net/calculator/jedi-consular/sage/

Rotation:

Weakened Mind>PoM Mind Crush>PoM Telekinetic Wave>Force in Balance> Telekinetic Throw.

This variation is what I use and it's IMO the best because it gives you what you honestly need the most in a raid and not what you think you need in terms or 1-2% if I go this way etc.

In all honesty, if you learn the fight you can minimize damage without having to bicker over certain abilities that lock you out of the most ideal build which is posted above.

In the end it all comes down to what you prefer, however I like having a multiple CC with a max shield and some periodic damage reduction. You shouldn't be using Project as it's a wasted 3 points in upheaval, when it can be used in other useful places. Project is a waste of force and you don't need the extra 100 force because you have noble sacrifice. Which if timed right and you stay out of the dumb stuff in raids will give you back force when you need it and you'll be healed by the healers anyways.

There is a lot more logic I would like to type out, but I know people are going to say my build is dumb because of abc. Just remember play what you enjoy. However the above build is the best "version" of the top dps build for sages if you like being helpful to the raid. IE, less damage taken, more CC and refined dps.

Strod, can you repost? Your link doesn't have any talent points assigned.

I agree that simply learning the fight is where you'll really minimize incoming damage. It's because of this that I don't see as big a need for talent points that reduce damage for you.

I respectfully disagree about upheaval, given my reasoning above.

I like the extra force because it eases extra strain on the healers, who may very well have their hands full keeping the raid up without me bringing myself down to half health just so I can do another couple rotations.

Ominari, I had a thought: In the TK tree, you could take that point out of telekinetic defense and put it into Longevity, maxing it out. That gives you max damage and max force to keep doing that damage for as long as possible without futzing around spending a point just to get to the next tier in the tree.

Strod · « **Reply #7 on:** January 28, 2012, 08:46:41 pm »

Strod, can you repost? Your link doesn't have any talent points assigned.

http://torguild.net/calculator/jedi-consular/sage/?p=000000000000000000030302020120000000003022022131211122300

I agree that simply learning the fight is where you'll really minimize incoming damage. It's because of this that I don't see as big a need for talent points that reduce damage for you.

You are going to take damage, it's just going to happen. Reducing DoT damage is huge in boss fights as well if being able to shield yourself to help the healers. Point being, use more protection so the healer don't have to heal you unless then are just trying to top you off to kill time.

I respectfully disagree about upheaval, given my reasoning above.

Project has no place for the above build and it's variations, none what so ever. It's a waste of force you should be using on TT and it's wasted points. You should be using PoM MC or TW for movement moments.

I like the extra force because it eases extra strain on the healers, who may very well have their hands full keeping the raid up without me bringing myself down to half health just so I can do another couple rotations.

Noble sacrifice does not bring you don't to half health period, if you are spamming it you are wrong. Pace yourself and work it into the roation and you will never have force issues I promise. The extra force is cool, but not needed at all. You have mechanics that allow you to regain health and force (FiB, Noble sacrifice and Focused insight) without wasting 2 whole points in a useless ability. You are healing yourself constantly through out the fight with the rotation designed for the build. You are not causing the healers anything.

Again, at the end of the day play what you want. But making false accusations about mechanics of certain abilities isn't helpful to learning a different variation. I've tried all variations of the build and the most ideal IMO is the one posted above for raids if you are looking to take the least amount of damage have the most about of utility when dealing with adds and at the same time doing the most dps you can do.

I'm always willing to discuss the build in TS if you want it explained, but I assure you I would never steer a fellow angel wrong. If you are looking to Min Max + Utility with this build. The above variation is very attractive for Raids. PvP would need a few points switched around.