FA Raiding System

[Arawn]

@Keeloth -  If crafting gear is equal to endgame raid content gear then what is the drive to raid? Because for alot of people organizing a group to go down a boss is harder then spending a week farming materials for a similar item.

And the metagame in wow currently (and alwayse has been) tanky dps, once a certian level of tankyness is acheived its not uncommon to see pve gear for more offensive starts on peoples person so long as they retain a certian level of tankyness, it could possibly be the same in SWTOR.

Well... if they make it that the bosses in raids drops the thing needed to craft the end gear... I think that will cause alot more drama... since you are going to need to kill him a lot of times and hope for the item to drop to gather the thingy...

For example.. you need 10 Rancor Tooth, and it has a 1% drop chance...

[Dandira]

@Keeloth -  If crafting gear is equal to endgame raid content gear then what is the drive to raid? Because for alot of people organizing a group to go down a boss is harder then spending a week farming materials for a similar item.

And the metagame in wow currently (and alwayse has been) tanky dps, once a certian level of tankyness is acheived its not uncommon to see pve gear for more offensive starts on peoples person so long as they retain a certian level of tankyness, it could possibly be the same in SWTOR.

Well... if they make it that the bosses in raids drops the thing needed to craft the end gear... I think that will cause alot more drama... since you are going to need to kill him a lot of times and hope for the item to drop to gather the thingy...

For example.. you need 10 Rancor Tooth, and it has a 1% drop chance...

WoW Did that with the plate dps legendary item for killing arthas. Shadowmourne took 50 shards to complete, and you only have like a 10% chance to get a shard if you downed a boss on heroic on the first attempt of the raid or something stupid difficult like that. And there was alot of drama about it. But if the crafting gear is equal to the raid gear, giving an alternative to raiding, why would the items required for it be from a raid, we'll deffinetly have to wait and see about this whole crafting thing, but this is just my opinion lol.

[Mharz]

Ah Shadowmourn... I love that axe.  It was a chore to make but my favorite WoW acheezement.  Ah well.. to the future!

What I hope we see in SWTOR is that crafting is THE way to make top end gear.  So why raid?  To get mats and patterns to make that top end gear.

Consider this as my ideal system:

Rare patterns have a super low drop rate in the "world" at large, a little higher drop rate in Flash Points, and a higher still drop rate in raids.  Materials follow a similar scheme.  What this effectively promotes is a gearing process that has a ramp up.  People who push end game raid content get geared faster because they get access to more critical drops more often giving them a temporial lead.  The casual players who make the choice not to raid aren't denied items but are instead required to grind a little longer.

This has always seemed really obvious to me as a very fair way to "gear up" in an MMO.

Anyway, back on topic.  I think someone mentioned we should determine what we want a loot system to accomplish for us.  Once we know that then the obvious choice will present itself.

~M

[Keeloth]

@Keeloth -  If crafting gear is equal to endgame raid content gear then what is the drive to raid? Because for alot of people organizing a group to go down a boss is harder then spending a week farming materials for a similar item

My guess?  The materials required to craft these items come from raids and PvP warzones.  So, that means there are three ways of getting top-tier gear:

- Raiding
- PvPing
- Spending a bajillion credits because you require mats gotten only from raiding or PvPing

Or, they could make Raiding gear have special properties that differentiate it frm crafting gear, I don't know what Bioware's strategy here is.  I just know that they've said top gear comes from raiding, PvP, and crafting.

[Venlar]

I see a lot of people talking about a loot council system. However, my biggest worry about this is just the human factor in general. Both on and off the council. On one hand you have people off the council who may feel that there is a bias amongst those on the council. Whether this is warranted or not it can spread drama and dissent. On the other hand the council is made up of people and people are fallible. Even if the intention is not there it may still lead to unintentional favoritism IE not having all the facts and giving one person a piece of loot even though another deserves it more. I'd rather remove human error or drama from the equation and go with pure numbers. Numbers don't lie.... unless they are being messed with. However I think so far the EPGP system seems the most apparently fair system there is. This is still not our only option. We can still try to come up with our own. Granted that may be another entirely different topic in its on right and a project on the level if not close to the challenge. It's something I think we still have on the table though and hell we got enough time til release to get something like that done. Just my 2 cents and opinion on the matter.

[Dandira]

I see a lot of people talking about a loot council system. However, my biggest worry about this is just the human factor in general. Both on and off the council. On one hand you have people off the council who may feel that there is a bias amongst those on the council. Whether this is warranted or not it can spread drama and dissent. On the other hand the council is made up of people and people are fallible. Even if the intention is not there it may still lead to unintentional favoritism IE not having all the facts and giving one person a piece of loot even though another deserves it more. I'd rather remove human error or drama from the equation and go with pure numbers. Numbers don't lie.... unless they are being messed with. However I think so far the EPGP system seems the most apparently fair system there is. This is still not our only option. We can still try to come up with our own. Granted that may be another entirely different topic in its on right and a project on the level if not close to the challenge. It's something I think we still have on the table though and hell we got enough time til release to get something like that done. Just my 2 cents and opinion on the matter.

Thats why the loot is decided upon not for who is the most geared and needs it to cap out but who is the LEAST geared, and needs it to stay competitive with the guild on the meters and such ect.  The very few exceptions are like END END ENDGAME content, where early bosses drop best in slot items, in which case you would give that to a higher dps or a higher healer if your having trouble progressing through the content. But with that exception  all the loot goes to the lesser geared members of the raid, to make our weakest link stronger.

[Venlar]

I see a lot of people talking about a loot council system. However, my biggest worry about this is just the human factor in general. Both on and off the council. On one hand you have people off the council who may feel that there is a bias amongst those on the council. Whether this is warranted or not it can spread drama and dissent. On the other hand the council is made up of people and people are fallible. Even if the intention is not there it may still lead to unintentional favoritism IE not having all the facts and giving one person a piece of loot even though another deserves it more. I'd rather remove human error or drama from the equation and go with pure numbers. Numbers don't lie.... unless they are being messed with. However I think so far the EPGP system seems the most apparently fair system there is. This is still not our only option. We can still try to come up with our own. Granted that may be another entirely different topic in its on right and a project on the level if not close to the challenge. It's something I think we still have on the table though and hell we got enough time til release to get something like that done. Just my 2 cents and opinion on the matter.

that's why the loot is decided upon not for who is the most geared and needs it to cap out but who is the LEAST geared, and needs it to stay competitive with the guild on the meters and such ect.  The very few exceptions are like END END ENDGAME content, where early bosses drop best in slot items, in which case you would give that to a higher dps or a higher healer if your having trouble progressing through the content. But with that exception  all the loot goes to the lesser geared members of the raid, to make our weakest link stronger.

Just playing devil's advocate here but how does the council decide which of 5 weak leaks who are participating in raids for weeks deserves said loot. Esp when the last few get a few weeks in for trying to get the same item. Just doesn't sit right with me for some reason.

[Dandira]

I see a lot of people talking about a loot council system. However, my biggest worry about this is just the human factor in general. Both on and off the council. On one hand you have people off the council who may feel that there is a bias amongst those on the council. Whether this is warranted or not it can spread drama and dissent. On the other hand the council is made up of people and people are fallible. Even if the intention is not there it may still lead to unintentional favoritism IE not having all the facts and giving one person a piece of loot even though another deserves it more. I'd rather remove human error or drama from the equation and go with pure numbers. Numbers don't lie.... unless they are being messed with. However I think so far the EPGP system seems the most apparently fair system there is. This is still not our only option. We can still try to come up with our own. Granted that may be another entirely different topic in its on right and a project on the level if not close to the challenge. It's something I think we still have on the table though and hell we got enough time til release to get something like that done. Just my 2 cents and opinion on the matter.

that's why the loot is decided upon not for who is the most geared and needs it to cap out but who is the LEAST geared, and needs it to stay competitive with the guild on the meters and such ect.  The very few exceptions are like END END ENDGAME content, where early bosses drop best in slot items, in which case you would give that to a higher dps or a higher healer if your having trouble progressing through the content. But with that exception  all the loot goes to the lesser geared members of the raid, to make our weakest link stronger.

Just playing devil's advocate here but how does the council decide which of 5 weak leaks who are participating in raids for weeks deserves said loot. Esp when the last few get a few weeks in for trying to get the same item. Just doesn't sit right with me for some reason.

It goes without saying that there are going to be alot of similar items on people when they first start out. But there are people who have alot of time to dedicate to a game who will pick up pvp pieces, or random drop pieces that are good for that content place. Aswell as people who skip some quests that give good items, because they didnt know they gave such items. I really dowbt that 5 people will have the EXACT same item set, and as such it wont be AS Difficult to decide what piece of loot goes where. And if you wanna go so far as to say 5 people have the EXACT same item  in that slot, then it would go to whoever has the weakest item set overall, and if you wanna go even FARTHER  that they all ahve the exact same items, play the exact same class / advance  combo then you have them roll, and there will be no drama with the roll, because once a person gets that upgraded piece of loot, they are no longer in that select group of weak links, and the drama over a lucky roller, or favorites would have no place there.

[Strod]

Loot council is a bad idea period. I highly suggest you take that particular loot system and simply put it out of your mind.

Loot council is a system that appoints certain individuals with the power to say who gets what. A system such as EPGP governs everyone and not just those who are not on a "council" is the type of fair system we should be looking at.

Also, if people are going to make this entire issue about getting gear and not about keeping things fair even for new members down the road, you may need to readjust your motives.

At the end of the day, a simple and easy to manage system while being fair and just to those involved is the best way for us to go. Loot council is not the way to go.

[Manic Velocity]

Since MxO was my first major MMO experience (I still play EVE casually but usually solo), reading all of this is an eye-opener.  I wanted to weigh in, but I have no experience with raiding in other games and raiding systems, so take the following with a grain of salt:

While MxO had little to no focus on raids, there was plenty of high-end gear to farm.  Pandora's Boxes, Wasteland Corruptors, Data Mining, and Sati's Toyboxes could all be considered "raids" in MxO.  The only difference I can see is that all of these took place in open areas and were not instanced.  But they all required various levels of teamwork.  

A raid system to me seems to go against our main goal as a group, which is to have fun as a group.  Reading through this thread I get the sense that a raid system would cause more drama than it would solve because it seems to create an unnecessary hierarchy.  I can understand the need to keep loot distribution fair.  But I know we hold ourselves to a pretty high standard, and the honor system always worked really well for us in MxO. I can't think of a single time when anyone in the faction felt cheated out of a drop that they felt entitled to.

It worked like this:

Broin: "Hey guys. I need Item X from this Pandora's Box. Anyone up for it?"
Everyone: "Sure! Let's go!"
Dagonet: "I also need Item X. Would you guys mind sticking around after this and helping me get it?"
Everyone: "No problem!"

*15 minutes later.*

Broin: "Ok. I've got my item. You guys can divvy up the rest."
Adad: "I found Item Y.  Anyone need it?"
Anamodiel: "I need Item Y."
ManicVelocity: "I also need Item Y.  Go ahead and take it, Ana.  I'll get it next time."

Long story short: We just plain helped each other out, we trusted each other to keep it fair, and it worked well for 4+ years.

I guess what I'm wondering is if a raid system is really necessary?  Again, I have no real experience with traditional raids, so I have no idea how they work.  It's entirely possible that the honor system I'm talking about would be ineffective.

[Keeloth]

*15 minutes later.*

This, I think, is probably the key difference.  I was not much of a raider in WoW, because those dungeons took HOURS.  You could seriously easily spend 4-6 hours slogging through trash mobs, just to fight a boss that has a 5% chance at the item you want. And if I remember right, the dungeons were locked so you could only run then once a week or something, so running the same dungeon again in the same night is just not happening even if people were willing to spend 8-12 hours a sitting doing nothing but raiding.  

So, that's why all these loot systems sprung up.  The reason I don't see if being as big a deal for us is because if we can get our PvP gear through PvP...then why would we raid?  I could see doing it so our members could see the content, but with the guild focus being on PvP and RP, I can't see us really having any reason to raid regularly if we don't need the gear.

[Venlar]

The biggest reasons loot systems become necessary in traditional raids in most MMOs vs MxO is simple manic. Rarity. Certain powerful equipment usually has a very low drop rate in most MMOs. Combine that with a raid lock out and what your talking about from MxO just isn't possible.

[Strod]

I'm 100% with you Manic I feel as you feel on the matter I really do. If I could make it so the Honor system we used in MxO would be the way we do things I would and to be honest there really isn't a real reason it can't be. However, that chances of it working are even lower than the current chances of getting into SWTOR: Beta. That coupled with the fact and I'm not saying anyone in particular, but we have a lot of new blood and most of which we have never been in this type of situation with before. It's hard to predict how our old ways will work with new people. It's something we are simply going to have to wait for and see once the game launches.

Keeloth your right, we are Heavy RP and PVP based and we will dominate both areas of the game much like we did in MxO, however if it's apart of the game we'll do it. With that being said, we did everything in MxO -- this particular type of "Raid" content was not exactly present in MxO so it's new ground for most of the Angels.

[Dandira]

I despise EPGP and DKP. I have never seen them work and they are terrible terrible ideas in my mind. In all the guilds ive been in through out 3 expansions of wow I only raided with one guild that did EPGP or DKP. My brother ran the points, and he would before the raid, sneak in extra points for himself and his friends, and the guildmaster and officers were in on it and got geared to max before anyone else got anything. Since then soon as i was recruited if they mentioned they used epgp or dkp (and i avoided those who advertised as dkp or epgp) they died by the next expansion because they broke up due to drama. Ive been in top guilds, 2nd server downing of content or one of the guilds to progress through it soon after. Most guilds now in wow including the one im in use /roll because the diversity of the classes and what they need no one really fights over gear in any guilds anymore, yet were downing heroic content that some guilds haven't even seen on normal difficult yet, without one complaint about loot.  But im not even a fan of that,  Loot council in my opinion is the best system. Because it helps everyone stay on the same gear level, thus keeping the weakest links constantly changing on who needs gear.  I completely disagree with you Sorrows.

Edit - Loot council would be run by Tbone and the officers trusted through a multitude of games anyway. The only possible issue with loot council is the same with EPGP and DKP.  Which is officer corruption. That is the only possible downfall of any of these systems, and out of them i personally prefer loot council because it spreads gear out evenly to those who need them, theres no stressing over how many points you have, or feeling discouraged and feeling you need to horde points till you have more then everyone else to assure you get a piece you NEED more then all of the others. Not to mention that officers would take note of how often people show up for raid, and they're effort put into them when distributing gear. Someone who NEVER shows up for raid would probably not get anything unless no one else needs it, same as someone who afk's through fights thinking that they will get carried without trying themselves.  Loot council is again, IMO the BEST system created.

Example - End of WOTLK.  I was my guilds first warrior, i was 3'rd out of the whole guild on damage per second ect. And i trained another warrior for how to do dps and he was 6th on the charts, but still doing well. I had drama arize in real life and missed a few raids. Because of those few missed raids the other warrior was chosen to get shadowmourne over me, i wasn't happy about it, but because i missed the raids i couldnt argue. Even though the officers knew about my drama they were looking out for the good of the guild and started getting the other warrior shadowmourne. (We didnt finish it before cata but the point remains, that EPGP or dkp being that i didnt need an upgrade a good 2 months before shadowmorune, and we raided every week, i could have been gone for a long while and still gotten shadowmourne over the other warrior, thus hurting the guild's chances to down content because i had drama and couldn't show up for a few raids at the time.

edit 2 - If we were running epgp i would have gotten the pieces of shadowmourne, and if the officers said no, there WOULD be drama because i would have had the points for it, and either they caused drama, or hurt the guilds progression chances until my real life drama had finished.

[Strod]

You seem to be confusing the Furious Angels with a pack and wild dogs that play WoW, trust me when I tell you your perception is way way off.

Corruption will always kill any loot system before it get off the ground, something you do not have to worry about here.

You seem to be against a system that in fact enforces what you want out of one. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I am fully against a Loot Council 100%. However, if your worried about being judged on performance, attendance and overall attitude -- Loot Council is not the only system that governs that. In fact it's probably the only system that says it does, but leaves it open to the council to IGNORE such information and dictate how they see fit.

Where I am confident that would not happen here, Loot Council is not the route we should go and I think others would agree.

EPGP is a system where you earn your points by showing up, doing well, and doing what your supposed to be doing. You then "purchase" your items by bidding your points and whoever has more points which is dictated by who's shown up more, attended more, been on time more, etc wins. You lose the points and move down the list, but that's the beauty the list CONSTANTLY changes and rotates which gives everyone a shot at loot.

Loot Council is a babysitting system where you try to impress those who have POWER over your gear and the POWER of you getting that gear first. It promotes brown nosing, drama, number buffing, and a long list of crap we don't need. Also to be quite honest, the whole Idea behind "Loot Council" just isn't what FA is all about.

For the moment, some are for both it seems. The brass is going to have to step in here sooner or later and a formal debate will have to be had IMO to hammer this out, but I hope those who will be heading the final call here really look at it. I know Venlar and I started this wonderful topic in TS the other night, but it's going to be a cornerstone issue is we choose to enjoy every aspect of the game.

At the end of the day, whatever is chosen I will roll with but I will fight for a fair system for every member even brand new ones after the release of the game.