FA Raiding System

[Venlar]

This topic has the potential to go south very quickly as we are talking about highly drama oriented materials, so let's keep in mind that it's just pixels and I personally would rather have just with just straight rolls.

However, I've been apart of "WoW" since launch and seeing a lot of drama and having to deal with a lot of it myself as I've always been an officer or a GM a loot system is the best way to deal with situations like this.

I will admit I'm very biased towards EPGP because it's a very fair system that bases your numbers off on how you perform. I don't mean numbers wise or knowledge of fights but, being on time for start time, being ready to raid, attendance etc. The real beauty of this is we can use it any way we want to, customize it to fit our needs. Typically one person runs the show and is called the LootMaster generally someone you trust such as an officer or even the GM/Co-GM.

At the end of the day, in Matrix this is something I was glad we did not have to deal with and I'm still hoping we don't somehow end up with the type of people in our home to where we would need to reinforce an extra pair of rules to keep everyone happy and fair without drama. I'm sure we have all baby sit for a friend before, but I really don't want to be doing it while I'm out with my friends if you catch my vibe.

I have a lot more to say on this matter as I'm a Lootmaster and I'm very experienced with EPGP, however I want to see where the topic goes before I say more.

I'd love to hear your experience with the EPGP system. I'm only somewhat versed in DKP from past guild experience and only have a basic understanding of the system. I'm really hoping to get more input from everyone in the guild on what their opinions are of some of the systems I listed earlier and I think the more informed we are about them then we can make the best choice to suit FA.

[Venlar]

Found a pretty good article about EPGP on WoWWiki

http://www.wowwiki.com/EPGP

[victoriah]

this has always been my least favorite thing about raiding.  i have seen so much drama it makes my head hurt.  the thing with WoW that I hated was the pieces to turn in for tier gear, which was always for like 2 or 3 classes.  loot that is class specific is so much easier to deal with.  as far as systems, the problems were always for casual players who didn't accrue dkp or whatever points and never got much.
one thing that was a good alternative in WoW was badge gear, and it was tier comparable by the end of burning crusade.
anyway, the majority of loot drama was player-driven, and since we are so awesome, i hope that we don't see anything like that happen

[Tbone]

We never used a system for MxO, but it wasn't much of a raiding game. I'm interested in what people think would work for us...

[Dration]

Does anyone really know how the system is supposed to work for big-team drops? I could have sworn I heard someone at PAX saying that when running things like flashpoints you get Tokens or Badges or something, which can be redeemed for stuff at the end of the mission? Something like that.

Has anyone dug through the Dev notes to see what we have to work with? Pertaining to loot and all, I tend to zone out and focus on the shiny things happening, so maybe we could post up some notes or liveblog links about it.

[JP]

Does anyone really know how the system is supposed to work for big-team drops? I could have sworn I heard someone at PAX saying that when running things like flashpoints you get Tokens or Badges or something, which can be redeemed for stuff at the end of the mission? Something like that.

Has anyone dug through the Dev notes to see what we have to work with? Pertaining to loot and all, I tend to zone out and focus on the shiny things happening, so maybe we could post up some notes or liveblog links about it.

Telos Commendations dropped off of the 1st mini boss as well as the last boss of the flashpoint from PAX which if used anything like wow which once you gain a certain amount of them will be able to trade in for tasty loots.

[Arawn]

As Venlar and TheSorrows have said... I hate when someone comes in and take something that I, or someone, has been looking for and raided alot to get... thats the thing with luck... In Aion i only raided with guildies so i dint mind... i just hoped they kept raiding to help us get through the dungeon easier, and since they already had the item, they wouldnt roll again.

[Mharz]

Hey all.  I figured this would be a place I could provide some useful input from past experience.

All the raiding I've ever done used a loot council distribution system.  While I'll give the nod in agreement to an earlier post about pros and cons about loot council what I think makes this system shine is that the loot council (normally officers) make decisions on where powerful items are best put to use.  

Loot council decisions can be based on:

1.  Attendance.  Show up, work hard get rewarded.
2.  Performance.  Pull off a battlefield heroic feat, save the day and get rewarded.
3.  Guild citizenship.  Helping the people around you and guildies to prep for raids deserves consideration as well.
4.  Size of the upgrade.  Who needs the item more?  Who will make the biggest impact to the group's performance with an upgrade?  
5.  Leading people to a role.  Need an off tank?  A backup healer?  Point the gear in the right direction to make that happen faster.

Just some ideas from my experience.  What this does require however is that we all keep the right attitude.  There is no "I" in team and a stronger team is better for everyone.  And of course faith in leadership to make good choices.

[Eroz]

We really should make a list of things we want the system to accomplish.

Something that the Angels have always been focused on is PvP, and we fight as a team not as individuals. Thinking through that it seems like we would always want our stats to be the best they can for group PvP battles. (Our other aspect RP, gear only matters in visuals not so much in stats, hopefully TOR will allow styles vs gear and we won't have to worry about farming dress whites as much.) I would say some part of the system would account for that.

[Paitryn]

My concern is mainly this game will have 20-30 man raids. In those type of raids you almost have about 5-6 different people wanting the same item. Dice rolls are all well and good but I've seen it lead to problems before... IE someone on a lucky streak.

Well I believe a dev was quoted a while back that they wouldn't go over 20, which we learned in wow over 25 was too much. (even at 25 you could carry 1 or 2 people)

but you are right when you have multiple classes going for the same item it can get tense. I never really had the problem because I never let loot be a drama issue to begin with. it was all about the fun of the raid for me, so crying over loot was useless IMO.

But an additional rule could be that once someone rolls on an important piece. (you really are only gonna get one roll here, but stranger things have happened once in a while) they only get that one roll.

Kara is an example where if you can clear in one night, your running 10 bosses, giving everyone a chance to roll on something in theory. (10 man raid)

but this guild is getting pretty large in size. I think the EPGP will work better.

Maybe some tweaks here and there, but the system rewards guild effort and neccessity to perform for the guild better.

[Keeloth]

It sounds like the Council system would work best for us, distributing items as the officers see fit (can even be RPed as items of great power being entrusted to members) so that we kick the most arse in PvP.  If we were a hardcore raiding guild, I'd be a little more iffy on that system, what with the potential for drama.  But I think it's safe to say that the primary goal of most of the members is not phat lewt, but being respected as a cohesive, hard-to-defeat bunch in PvP.  Phat lewt helps with that, but is not the end goal in itself.

Then again, I'm not much for raiding, and am really hoping that Bioware makes good on its promise of endgame equipment being available through crafting.

[Paitryn]

It sounds like the Council system would work best for us, distributing items as the officers see fit (can even be RPed as items of great power being entrusted to members) so that we kick the most arse in PvP.  If we were a hardcore raiding guild, I'd be a little more iffy on that system, what with the potential for drama.  But I think it's safe to say that the primary goal of most of the members is not phat lewt, but being respected as a cohesive, hard-to-defeat bunch in PvP.  Phat lewt helps with that, but is not the end goal in itself.

Then again, I'm not much for raiding, and am really hoping that Bioware makes good on its promise of endgame equipment being available through crafting.

well pvp gear and raiding gear will be separate entities from the understanding ive gotten from most of the interviews reguarding it. most likely pvp gear having more stamina and defensive stats. I dont think it would be in our best interests to Raid pve for PVP gear when PVP is supposed to have its own gear rewards.

[Keeloth]

It sounds like the Council system would work best for us, distributing items as the officers see fit (can even be RPed as items of great power being entrusted to members) so that we kick the most arse in PvP.  If we were a hardcore raiding guild, I'd be a little more iffy on that system, what with the potential for drama.  But I think it's safe to say that the primary goal of most of the members is not phat lewt, but being respected as a cohesive, hard-to-defeat bunch in PvP.  Phat lewt helps with that, but is not the end goal in itself.

Then again, I'm not much for raiding, and am really hoping that Bioware makes good on its promise of endgame equipment being available through crafting.

well pvp gear and raiding gear will be separate entities from the understanding ive gotten from most of the interviews reguarding it. most likely pvp gear having more stamina and defensive stats. I don't think it would be in our best interests to Raid pve for PVP gear when PVP is supposed to have its own gear rewards.

Ideally, that would be the case.  I remember back in vanilla WoW the Grand Marshal gear was more than a match for the raiding gear people had.  Not sure if that's changed.

[Deathsythe]

Back in TBC, the guild I was in had a DKP system and I was Raid Leader/ Off Tank. On various ocassions I passed on items for the Main Tank and a pally tank we were gearing up for the Morogrim Tidewalker encounter. I passed on them not just because it benefited the overall guild and our progress, but because I had been a Main Tank and I know know what it's like to MT for hours and leave empty handed. Anyway, after a few weeks all the officers talked to me regarding my points and the fact that, according to them, I was hoarding them. It was not true and since they actually wanted me to bid, I did so when the T5 shoulders dropped in TK, even though the MT needed them more (I had no other choice and they actually cooled off afterwards).

Whether it's Loot Council or DKP you will still have drama. With Loot Council there will be people shouting favoritism and with dkp there will also be people spouting nonsense. Players that are selfish and neglect the benefit of the whole guild, and place themselves first.

In the end, I'll just go along with whatever is decided.

[Dandira]

Ive had bad experiences with EPGP and even DKP systems. My step brother used to run a guild on my old world of Warcraft server where he was the loot master and kept track of the points, whenver a piece of loot dropped it went to the officers or guild msater (himself being an officer) unless they didnt need it, then the rest of the guild got a shot.

Im partial to loot council. So heres my explination of it to throw into the think tank

Loot council is where you get the officers, and gm all together when a boss is downed, players who need the loot put a 1 in chat, or something to make it known they require the item. And the loot council decides based on raid attendance, and who the upgrade would e BIGGER for.

(example,  Wrathful is the highest pvp tier at level 80,  deadly below that, and hateful below that.  If wrathful gloves were to drop, and theyre the only item i need to be full wrathful, even if i never miss a raid or never step in fire, it would go to someone who is in deadly gear, or hateful gear or worse ect.    The only acception of this is the very new recruits, who normaly go a few raids to prove dedication before getting any loot to show they arent going to leave over not getting loot, or arent trying to get loot then run. Also a very rare exception in world of warcraft, was DBW [Death Bringers Will] It was the best trinket in slot for melee dps at the time, and normaly went to the better dps who have proven theyre worth and dedication to the guild, becuase it was such a rare item to come across)

@Keeloth -  If crafting gear is equal to endgame raid content gear then what is the drive to raid? Because for alot of people organizing a group to go down a boss is harder then spending a week farming materials for a similar item.

And the metagame in wow currently (and alwayse has been) tanky dps, once a certian level of tankyness is acheived its not uncommon to see pve gear for more offensive starts on peoples person so long as they retain a certian level of tankyness, it could possibly be the same in SWTOR.