FA Raiding System

[Venlar]

So I've been thinking about this recently. It seems pretty apparent that SWTOR is going to have a much heavier raiding element than MXO. Now I think it would be prudent that we start working on a system for distribution of loot from these raids. It was a little bit easier for us to manage in MXO cause we'd just camp whatever boss would drop the uber leet gears. lol However I have a feeling if SWTOR is going to model raiding after other MMOs we will see certain dungeons with a lock out of up to a week. Now I brought this up last night in TS and got some good suggestion and I've also been doing some research online about various systems. I'll list this stuff here for you guys to look over, comment on and make your own suggestions.

DKP(Dragon Kill Points) - This is by far the most common method I've found. Basically you set up a system where the more raids you participate in the more points you accumulate. Then you are free to spend said points on various loot that was picked up during the raid.

Pros-  Very easy to set up. Likely we will see a form of this on the SWTOR guild site in the future. Fair system in terms of earning what you get.

Cons- Can cause drama. Hording points becomes an issue. Can lead to having 1 uber dude with all the best equipment and 6 other mediocre. Only the most active members would have a real shot at loot and those who can only raid once in a while may be left in the dust.

Additional Notes- It has been mentioned that we could add a decay system to points to prevent hording.


Loot Council - This is a system where in a group of officers of the guild would form a council to vote on and decide who gets what loot. Most commonly they are decided either by making an argument to the council or random rolls between 1-100.

Pros- Extremely easy to set up. No extra web design or programming.

Cons- Drama can come of decisions by the council that may be seen as unfair or playing favorites.

 Suicide Kings - This system is set up as a list of members ranked according to attendance. The higher they are on the list the more priority they have on a piece of loot that drops. Once they take a piece of loot they are "suicided" and moved back to the bottom of the list.

Pros- A fair system for those who attend a lot of raids, easy to set up.

Cons- Again faced with the problem of having those who can't make every raid left behind those who can attend a lot.

EPGP(Effort Points/Gear Points - The way this system is set up is you earn effort points for attending raids. Now every time you gain a new item from these raids it raises your gear points. Now you take your EP and divide it by your GP and that gives you your priority on the list.  Now there is also a 10% weekly decay on EP and GP which gives others a chance to get items but does not reduce your PR.

Pros- Very fair system, everyone is on equal ground and has a chance to get the items they want. No one person can pull ahead of the group.

Cons- May be a pain to design and program.

FA "Socialistic" Distribution System- So it was brought up last night that perhaps we could look into making a system that distributes loot based entirely on need. It would have to take into account everyone's stats and be able to list priority based entirely on what their gear or stats are.

Pros- Would work well for the greater good of the guild. IE everyone is has some decent gear rather than a handful having all the best.

Cons- May be difficult to set up and to keep track of member stats accurately.

Side note- We risk cold war with capitalist imperialist pig dogs... =p


So those seem to be the top loot systems out there right now. Please if you can list off any more feel free to do so. Also if you have anything to add your input is always wanted.

[Arawn]

Problem is... that if they make it like that... they pretty much took it from wow and especially from aion where dungeons lock you out for alot of hours ( the best dungeon kept you out for 2 days ), now the real problem is that... they probably took the bind on pick up system of Aion.. if thats the case then its pretty much whoever needs in the raid group, gets to pick up...

However we can take one of these systems for those Bind-on Equip (unlike Bind-on Pick up i just spoke) items that drops... take in mind Bind-on Pick up are better than Bind-on Equip.

[Venlar]

Problem is... that if they make it like that... they pretty much took it from wow and especially from aion where dungeons lock you out for alot of hours ( the best dungeon kept you out for 2 days ), now the real problem is that... they probably took the bind on pick up system of Aion.. if that's the case then its pretty much whoever needs in the raid group, gets to pick up...

However we can take one of these systems for those Bind-on Equip (unlike Bind-on Pick up I just spoke) items that drops... take in mind Bind-on Pick up are better than Bind-on Equip.

If that is the case then whatever system we choose I think it should still be possible to look up the priority or have someone spend points during the raid and have that person be the one actually picking up the item. Might be a little more time consuming and a pain to tab out to the system itself but it is in the interest of fairness and preventing unnecessary drama.

[Paitryn]

Playing WoW for as long as I did, the DKP system was utilized often by high end guilds, but really it wasn't all that necessary in casual raiding. casually you just needed on the item if it was your class/spec and if no one fit that category then class/offspec. if none of that than the item was disenchanted and the mats put in the guild bank or rolled on by the whole community.

this way when a class item drops all the members of the class get to roll on the loot item and the dice roll makes the final call. I never really had an issue with this system causing any drama, unlike other systems where that guy that saved up DKP forever is suddenly buying everything. (something my old roommate was notorious for)

Loot councils take too long when your mid raid. BOP items have to be picked up on the spot.

Loot distribution shouldnt be such a worry honestly. with this group players should be considering what is best for the guild overall and we would all get what we need to help the guild succeed accordingly.

[Venlar]

Also I know in WoW and other games BoP items can be traded to members of the group for a couple of hours before being actually bound to the player. Not sure about Aion though. Pretty sure the same was true in EQ2.

[Venlar]

Playing WoW for as long as I did, the DKP system was utilized often by high end guilds, but really it wasn't all that necessary in casual raiding. casually you just needed on the item if it was your class/spec and if no one fit that category then class/offspec. if none of that than the item was disenchanted and the mats put in the guild bank or rolled on by the whole community.

this way when a class item drops all the members of the class get to roll on the loot item and the dice roll makes the final call. I never really had an issue with this system causing any drama, unlike other systems where that guy that saved up DKP forever is suddenly buying everything. (something my old roommate was notorious for)

Loot councils take too long when your mid raid. BOP items have to be picked up on the spot.

Loot distribution shouldnt be such a worry honestly. with this group players should be considering what is best for the guild overall and we would all get what we need to help the guild succeed accordingly.

My concern is mainly this game will have 20-30 man raids. In those type of raids you almost have about 5-6 different people wanting the same item. Dice rolls are all well and good but I've seen it lead to problems before... IE someone on a lucky streak.

[Venlar]

Personally I'm in favor of either the EPGP system or coming up with our own system. I want to ensure that everyone in the guild is getting good equipment rather than a few people being pimped out. I think it will lead to us being an overall stronger guild. Also as our numbers increase we are going to gain more people that are into raiding. With the amount of people we have been interviewing and accepting into the guild I could see us having a very strong raiding team possibly even two or three if our numbers get high enough. Also we are a PvP oriented guild so we are going to want the best advantage over our enemies. I hate to say cause I know people are hoping this game will be more skill based but at the end of the day it's still an RPG. RPGs are and always will be based on stats and numbers.

[ArchNemesis]

I'm definitely down for our own socialist system =D

I remember a certain someone getting items in Darkfall and then constantly trying to trade or get something out of an item that he normally wouldn't even use. If this type of thing ever happens within the FA i assure you that it'll be taken care of quickly. I like the idea of working together to better the guild as a whole. Personally, i have no problem giving up an item i could use for someone else that is less decked out.

[Venlar]

I'm definitely down for our own socialist system =D

I remember a certain someone getting items in Darkfall and then constantly trying to trade or get something out of an item that he normally wouldn't even use. If this type of thing ever happens within the FA I assure you that it'll be taken care of quickly. I like the idea of working together to better the guild as a whole. Personally, I have no problem giving up an item I could use for someone else that is less decked out.

Thanks arch that's a really good example of the kind of situations I'm trying to avoid. Greed can drive a group of people apart faster than you can say the word. Any kind of problem coming from unfair looting or being greedy will inevitably lead to drama. Like Broin said last night. We don't do drama.

[Heironymus]

I can almost guarantee you the people that reallllllly want the gear will find a way to get the gear.. I know in the guild I am in for WoW we have a weekly raid system and generally do just loot rolls, however if its a really good item we have to show that it is a good increase from the item we have.. if it is a minor upgrade or a like for like then we don't roll if someone else needs it more.. However, if it is between three people that all equally (for the most part) could use the upgrade then its a fair roll between them.. Very rarely does this cause any problems..

As for loot council, well... that seems like an idea just begging for someone to start complaining about favoritism (even if you can prove it is not in any way that) and cause a whole bunch of drama.


Im down for the socialist system.. or just a clean rolling system based on NEED...

[Arawn]

Well this is a pretty good subject to talk about, we gotta get ready before the game comes out. Organization will make us excel above all others.

I gotta say thou.. that im not that worried... if there are instanced dungeon that can be done with a group then groups will consist of 1 class of each type... therefore people will just roll for whatever his class can use... Im planning to go for PvP gear over PvE gear... and for that reason im gonna find myself pvping alot more than pveing... i've had my good share of pve with Aion, which btw... you cant trade BOP items after you pick them up :S dunno if, in wow, there was a grace time or minutes/hour that u could still trade em, but in Aion if you picked something up by mistake you were flagged as a ninja and that pretty much screwed your chances at getting party invites.

[Strod]

This topic has the potential to go south very quickly as we are talking about highly drama oriented materials, so let's keep in mind that it's just pixels and I personally would rather have just with just straight rolls.

However, I've been apart of "WoW" since launch and seeing a lot of drama and having to deal with a lot of it myself as I've always been an officer or a GM a loot system is the best way to deal with situations like this.

I will admit I'm very biased towards EPGP because it's a very fair system that bases your numbers off on how you perform. I don't mean numbers wise or knowledge of fights but, being on time for start time, being ready to raid, attendance etc. The real beauty of this is we can use it any way we want to, customize it to fit our needs. Typically one person runs the show and is called the LootMaster generally someone you trust such as an officer or even the GM/Co-GM.

At the end of the day, in Matrix this is something I was glad we did not have to deal with and I'm still hoping we don't somehow end up with the type of people in our home to where we would need to reinforce an extra pair of rules to keep everyone happy and fair without drama. I'm sure we have all baby sit for a friend before, but I really don't want to be doing it while I'm out with my friends if you catch my vibe.

I have a lot more to say on this matter as I'm a Lootmaster and I'm very experienced with EPGP, however I want to see where the topic goes before I say more.

[ExternalError]

I raid alot in lotro and act as raid leader from time to time my raid alliance employ a bonus loot roll scheme where by every successful boss kill gives each person involved a +10 to there accumulative roll which they can use on desirable loot the rolls can go up to a maximum of 300.  Everyone starts on 100 and if you win a loot roll your total is reset back to 100.  Using the roll system adds a element of randomness so even people who cant raid as often have a fair chance of winning a roll therefore removing any drama.

Also Im a min maxer myself so know exactly what i want to roll on before it even drops.  This way I do not roll on items that may benefit other people more than me.  It's one of my pet peeves where we get people rolling on stuff that isn't even an upgrade to what they have there by doing some one else out of a beneficial item.

[Venlar]

My only concern with a rolling system is I have seen really messed up rolls in the past. There is one instance that stands out in my mind where one guy won 5 rolls during a raid in EQ2... it pretty much left jack for the rest of the players on that particular raid. It just ended up feeling like we did all that for nothing at all and this guy just won the lottery. Not a good way to keep a group together if you ask me. I know it's extremely rare and unlikely but it can happen. I also don't want to see people rolling for items they don't need or need as much as other players.

[Strod]

I raid alot in lotro and act as raid leader from time to time my raid alliance employ a bonus loot roll scheme where by every successful boss kill gives each person involved a +10 to there accumulative roll which they can use on desirable loot the rolls can go up to a maximum of 300.  Everyone starts on 100 and if you win a loot roll your total is reset back to 100.  Using the roll system adds a element of randomness so even people who can't raid as often have a fair chance of winning a roll therefore removing any drama.

Also I'm a min maxer myself so know exactly what I want to roll on before it even drops.  This way I do not roll on items that may benefit other people more than me.  It's one of my pet peeves where we get people rolling on stuff that isn't even an upgrade to what they have there by doing some one else out of a beneficial item.

I run a very similar mechanic for when we do Drake runs like in ICC or even older content, but only for older content because in current content, the people who are consistent in showing up should have the go at loot.

I'm 100% against someone coming in their first time and grabbing an item that perhaps our main healer has been looking to upgrade for weeks finally drops. I mean sure, the odds are low but it's something that shouldn't be left to such chance, because that can cause a lot more drama than other loot issue I've seen it myself lol.

My only concern with a rolling system is I have seen really messed up rolls in the past. There is one instance that stands out in my mind where one guy won 5 rolls during a raid in EQ2... it pretty much left jack for the rest of the players on that particular raid. It just ended up feeling like we did all that for nothing at all and this guy just won the lottery. Not a good way to keep a group together if you ask me. I know it's extremely rare and unlikely but it can happen. I also don't want to see people rolling for items they don't need or need as much as other players.

Well, obviously it would only work in a perfect world where caution and fair was 1st nature to everyone. It was more of a statement than a real "what we should do". I get your drift, I've had it happen too.