Crafting and PvP in SWTOR

[Manic Velocity]

They talked about how in PvP you'd earn tokens that you can use to buy "PvP gear" that lets people know you are cool.

Warhammer had something like this, if memory serves.  I only played for a month or two, so I can't remember for sure.  I believe there were different rewards for doing battlegrounds, and different rewards for the open-world RvR stuff.  

It was nice to be rewarded for PvP (hell, in Warhammer it seemed you were rewarded for doing anything), but like you say T, it turned PvP into its own kind of grind.  

MxO's PvP was mis-handled, but being so broken is what made it fun.  The fact that it was so unbalanced and coupled with the ability to change your loadout on the fly, made for some awesome fights.  It was the wild west of PvP.  

I think FFA PvP is fun when it's done right.  In EVE, everyone is fair-game, even in hi-security space.  But there are some heavy consequences for attacking someone who you really shouldn't attack.

[Shirokumo]

T hit the nail on the head though. MxO had real, true, open world PvP with awesome fights not because of any PvP system or UI group-maker, but because of the travel. In MxO when your guildie got ganked at Mara C, you hit up the nearest hardline, along with the rest of your online guild mates, and all of you were at Mara C in a matter of seconds. No other game with open PvP zones has a travel system like this. In WoW, if you get ganked in one zone, you tell all your guild members, and the 5 of them that actually care jump on a flight path that takes 5-10 minutes to get them there. God forbid they're on a different continent or in northrend or outlands where travel time on zeppelins or ships could add another 15-20 minutes. By the time anyone shows up the gankers are gone, no time to retaliate, no time for them to get their guildies in on it, no big battles.

Shit, even when people attack low level cities of the other faction in typical mmos very few people come to it's aid. Nobody's flying in from the far reaches of the continent to defend it, because nobody cares if its not in their zone. And most of the people in that zone are going to lay low and try to keep questing because they can't be bothered to stop grinding for some PvP. Unless SWTOR has some sort of a travel system that rivals hardline jumping, there will not be true, honest, open world pvp for the sake of pvp. Yeah, they might have something like wintergrasp, but something feels dirty about PvPing in an "open world area" that has huge signs everywhere that say, "If you are a carebear you are in the wrong place! You might, possibly, get hurt or even killed by other players in this zone! You should probably leave!"

Another reason integrated areas are awesome. Turning the corner and seeing a pants-shittingly high number of reds standing around your hardline/mission objective/etc never happens in games where each side is kept contained in their own little quest hubs and cities.

[Deathsythe]

SWTOR seems to be working the same way - you can queue up PvP matches from anywhere in the game universe and then it just spawns you in when it is ready. I don't really like this method, as it really breaks the immersion. How did I get on Alderon? What's beyond these walls? I guess it makes life easier, but it doesn't seem as rewarding as getting your team together and flying to the planet and adventuring to the PvP area.

As enjoyable as that might be, it brings with it a bunch of problems. Sure it's cool if you and your group do it, but will the rest of the players do it? With Instancing you can make your way there and queue up, while somebody in Tython can also meet up and fight with/against you.

Like Paitryn said: "Problem games have seen is getting enough players to fulfill those zones without one faction being stronger than another. hence instancing for balance and challenge. plus they can go multiserver so it fills up faster."

This completely destroyed the process you had to go through to find a group for either BGs or dungeons, but few people complained about the loss of nostalgia because instead of spamming trade chat for other group members, now you let the ui do it for you. Another way Blizzard has nerfed the game and made it easier for casuals.

I used to play hardcore, but eliminating a 4 HOUR wait time is not catering to the casuals. This was an improvement to WoW, not a hindrance.

They talked about how in PvP you'd earn tokens that you can use to buy "PvP gear" that lets people know you are cool. I just don't know...PvP being reduced to token gathering.

Tokens used for PvP and PvE is one of the best ideas Blizzard developed. Anybody that played since vanilla will have good memories and will probably complain about how the game has changed, but tokens were necessary. It was ridiculous to do Molten Core or Blackwing Lair for weeks or months only to NEVER get your drop, because either it didn't drop or somebody bid more, etc.

With Tokens you are rewarded by each boss you kill or each player kill. The developers have increased the number of tokens, therefore increasing the number of people getting Tier Gear. This is an excellent choice by the Bioware team.

Yeah, they might have something like wintergrasp, but something feels dirty about PvPing in an "open world area" that has huge signs everywhere that say, "If you are a carebear you are in the wrong place! You might, possibly, get hurt or even killed by other players in this zone! You should probably leave!"

As fun as that may be, "open world" pvp is about the ability to attack or be attacked by the opposing faction at any time. Bioware wants this game to be accesible to the majority of gamers, both hardcore and casuals. Having a gank fest everywhere every time you reach a major city, etc is not fun. Eventually it will be annoying.

Sorry for the long rant. Just my .02

[Paitryn]

Think MxO by its very foundations (both story and game design) supported open pvp very well from what everyone is saying. Unfortunately, Star Wars as a backdrop can't really support this same concept. Instant travel to zones would result in a lot of "immersion breaking" complaints because thats now how travelling in star wars works. In MxO its easy to instant travel because this was key in movies with the Hardline entrance system of the matrix. In star wars you have to get into a ship and hyperspace travel from one planet to the next. while we will probably not have long travel times for this (it can take months to travel from one side of the galaxy to the next. we will probably have a movie based travel time) It will still take much longer to get there than MxO.

Tokens for both raid and pvp are basically an easy access to the carrot that gets dangled in front of players to keep them reaching for goals. MMOs are a lot more goal oriented now. Problem is, at least in my eyes, that the goals are effectively pointless. The goal achieved, the reward is not really necessary. I.E. pvp for awesome gear, but to get that awesome gear you had to already been an accomplished PvPer. Likewise for raids. Once you reach a certain point, the raid drop gear is pointless to have.

My roommate is a prime example of this, He raided ICC (top raid) in WoW but instead of getting the gear, he just kept saving the DKP points from his guild. he already had the gear needed to down the final boss, so any gear he drops is not necessary. It would just be replaced at expansion. So when the new raids come up, hes already got a DKP surplus from past raiding.

[Tbone]

One of the complaints I had about MxO was that the same hardlines that made grouping up and PvP easy, also kept there from being a true feeling of adventure. Because you could be anywhere in an instant, any area that wasn't known as a hotspot hardline would usually be deserted. The mission system also meant that you could be anywhere an grind up.

I'm not saying SWTOR needs a fast travel system like the hardlines - quite he opposite. Queueing from anywhere takes out the adventure of getting to the PvP, albeit for some convenience.

I guess the "battlegrounds" method just reminds me of console games like Halo, as opposed to what I think of when I think o traditional MMO PvP.

[Paitryn]

in a perfect pvp game setting the enemy would be plentiful and in the zones we want to fight in, but it never works the way we want them to. sometimes there's 1 vs 20. actually seems more often that way. and with most of us starting off on different planets im not sure when we will come together as a group whole gamewise.

its gonna come down to how pvp is set up and how we are set up in the game as to what options we have to work as a team in PVP.

[Da6onet]

Traveling in space is a constant factor in EVE. Whenever I want to get together with Manic, one or both of us might have to make 10 or more system jumps, which takes a decent chunk of time, especially on auto pilot. That is why corporations can only expand their territory so much, because shifting resources across multiple systems takes time, and in a massive pvp fight, the whole thing can be over by the time backup arrives. That said, it still is technically an open-world pvp system, so I am not sure that traveling in SWTOR will have an impact on pvp.

[Manic Velocity]

which takes a decent chunk of time, especially on auto pilot.

Do you really use autopilot?

[Da6onet]

which takes a decent chunk of time, especially on auto pilot.

Do you really use autopilot?

If I'm in high sec and I'm making dinner or spending QT with the spouse.

[Paitryn]

http://darthhater.com/2010/11/05/swtor-pvp-warzones-crafting-revealed/page/1

Interview article by Darth hater from the recent E3 winter announcements of pvp and crafting.

there is mention by Christine at BioWare that players who dedicate themselves to crafting will benfit more. Some thing we discussed at the last meeting.

Pvp there isnt anything new, just more insight on the warzone setup.

[Stumpy]

I actually dont mind a slow travel time. In a game where you can get reinforcements instantly it can truly take away from the strategy. Someone was talking above about the matrix online where you could basically be anywhere in a matter of minutes and while i can see the usefulness in this I (personally) find this a little dull.

By not having this instant travel ability it makes timing all the more important. Lets face it, no one wants to coordinate a raid with all their guild mates, execute said raid and then have everyone from the opposing faction there in 30 seconds.

my point is simple, more time = more strategy and in the end it is not how good of a player you are or how good your gear is that wins the day. It is your strategy that gives you the clear advantage over others.

[Paitryn]

I think it had more to do with being out alone and getting jumped by a group of the opposing faction and your backup being too far away. You end up having to wait till they leave before rezzing to avoid potential griefing. but by the time your backup arrives they have usually moved on to someone or somewhere else.

In the end its less about strategy, and more about how much time gets wasted by griefers.

[Stumpy]

I understand that point of it but you cant have one without the other and all im saying is in the end I would rather deal with griefers than give up strategy.

But again thats just my opinion.

[Da6onet]

I understand that point of it but you can't have one without the other and all I'm saying is in the end I would rather deal with griefers than give up strategy.

But again that's just my opinion.

Oddly enough, the griefing was far far worse in Darkfall, where it took 45-60 minutes to get across the mainland with a mount (don't even bother without a mount or from one of the islands). The experience there taught me that griefers are everywhere in any MMO, so the only strategy was work in groups. Working in groups is fine for defined/coordinated activities such as raids, but when grinding xp or other dull tasks, it becomes harder to keep a group focused or logged in at the same time for that matter. If SWTOR provides a safeguard such as locked mission areas for solo grinders then the griefing problems will be diminished.

[Stumpy]

I understand what you mean. I played Darkfall for a month and while i thought the game was fun and unique, the fact i could be killed anywhere really got me mad (especially since i was guildless) I cant even keep track of how many times i did the "kill goblins to get their axes quest" because i was getting killed by everything from my own race to the goblins.

Darkfall however is an extreme to what i was saying. 45 minutes by mount to help your friends is a little ridiculous but i dont see a problem with 5-10 minutes.