randomness

[Maglorius]

I know this has probably been played out on so many different levels but I still get a kick out of this video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNyE2xExktA&ob=av3e

[Mharz]

Really that one never gets old.

[Maglorius]

http://www.youtube.com/user/sequentialpictures#p/c/F6A294600F665E08/7/f1iTwTdHx7I

http://www.youtube.com/user/sequentialpictures#p/c/F6A294600F665E08/11/BmY-CrgprEI

I love the stuff Sequential Pictures does!

http://www.sequentialpictures.com/movie_avatar_redub.html

[Fuse]

Our team moved to a new building, so we spiced up the walls.

[Da6onet]

http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/

Nice and cozy.

[JazzyC]

How? As Commander in Chief he can order the troops home as soon as possible.

That's a simplistic view at best.  I won't go into the political machinations that would play against him, most notably the Military-Industrial Complex (MIC).  If I did, I would probably make a long post even longer.

The US forces, like the UKs, are scattered around the world.  Arguably they are there (as perhaps obligated by being global super-powers) trying to maintain the peace in many, many parts of the world.  Furthermore, whether you like it or not, they are out there protecting their nations foreign interests (and I do mean other things, but include oil within the equation).

Assuming Ron Paul was being absolute about bringing all the troops home.  Does that mean he intends to stand against the UN too?  US troops are part of many a UN force as peace-keeping operartions.  Pulling all troops would significantly reduce the UNs impact and influence in places such as Sierra Leone, Ethiopia and Georgia (to name but a few).

But, ok, lets assume he just meant pulling troops from Afghanistan and Iraq.  The debate as to the reasoning why we got involved can rage on and on.  Either way, I would argue that now our forces (UK, US and others who entered the fray) or morally (if not ethically) obligated to rebuild/maintain security and bring the country back to a point where they can support themselves and live in an acceptable level of "peace".

[likwidtek]

We currently occupy 150 countries around the world, many of them of which have no desire for us to be there.  Not only that but we're tangled up in a handful of war like escapades that we have zero business being a part of.  The MIC has been sucking money from the US tax payer for many many years while leaving a trail of dead bodies that covers the globe.  We have no right to do what we're doing and we especially do not have the money to pay for it.

When he says he'll bring the troops home, the way that I've heard him say it is that he's starting with the combat operations and slowly will start closing bases around the world.

Yeah I see NOTHING wrong with this whatsoever.  Especially when the world is screaming "Leave us alone".

All of this said, I'd LOVE to see a detailed plan as to what he has in mind and how exactly this would be executed.  Obviously none of this can happen over night however, it would be SUPER to have a president at the wheel that says what he means.  I was so let down by Obama's lies of bringing the troops home.

[Da6onet]

I'm just going to put out there that dicking over other nations and people is a long held human tradition. If America stopped dicking over anyone outside the US tomorrow, it can be assured that some other nation will fill in the dicking void.
Possible Examples:
China takes Taiwan by hostile force
Russia sits on Georgia
North Korea bombs South Korea
Middle east becomes completely unchecked
Iran/Terrorist group set off a wmd in Israel, Israel responds with nukes/invasion.
Pakistani terrorists draw India into a major conflict with nobody to pressure them to stop.

The point being, isolationism has proven to be disastrous in the past (you may have heard of WWII), and while I agree we tend to stick our collective dick in places it doesn't belong, I contend:

1. Who is going to stop us?
2. Wouldn't you rather it was us dicking over the world than some other nation or collection of nations?

[NoCry]

I actually appreciate the dick sticking which occurs. You are the only democratic superpower and with that comes responsibility.

Don't underestimate the size of your defence budget and spend chaps. All that money makes an awful lot of jobs and allows a massive amount of innovation.

[Da6onet]

I actually appreciate the dick sticking which occurs.

Note: Only a proper Englishman can say that with a straight face.

[Mharz]

I hate politics.  I think it might come from the origin of the word.. poly - as in many, and tics - as in "ticks," blood sucking parasites.  But I digress.  On to the more relevant issue.

I think Likwid is mostly right with his take.  Why are we wasting american lives and dollars in countries around the world that hate us?  To influence change is what I keep hearing.  The cost we pay in countries around the world is steep in dollars and lives and the results we have to show, of late, do not justify those expenditures.  I'd rather spend those dollars (but hopefully not lives) here at home to make our country better.  To affect change here where it will impact the people that matter most, namely Americans.

Some facts:

1.  The US military is the most powerful fighting force in the history of the planet.  We can deliver more punch in 24 hours than most countries can in a year and we can do it with little to no notice.  Our warfighters are THE BEST at rapidly going places, killing people, and breaking things.  Its what we do and we do it well.

2.  A military force does NOT perform the same mission as a police force.  Our troops are NOT well equiped in my never to be humble opinion to act as a police force in another country.  They lack the training and the desire to control a population that resents our presence and authority.  We are making strides in this area and while getting better is good I DO NOT agree that our military should ever be keepers of the peace.

3.  Our military MO of late has been an utter and complete failure.  Not a reflection our warfighters but more a failure of our leadership.  When a country does something "bad" (and this could be anything from human rights violations to attacking a friend) we launch an assault and bring the country to its knees forcing it to come to the table and rethink that "bad" thing it did.  Then we send troops to that country to restore order.  We send US dollars to rebuild.  We flood our news with the humanitarian stories about how great the US has been as an influence to this country.  We try to make friends in that country.  We try to influence change by interaction.

These are facts (maybe the failure part is more opinion).  

Why do I call this a failure?  We spend American dollars breaking things and killing people and then we spend more dollars and lives influencing change in the country we just destroyed.  The chain, in my opinion has to STOP at breaking things and killing people.  If change is what you're after, complete removal of the problem is what will bring the most radical change.  

The new MO should be more painful for the country's leadership.  When we decide to take military action against a country we should announce it.  We should drop leaflets and explain to the people that your country's leadership has made a fundamental error which they refuse to correct.  Please remove the leadership in 60 days or we will do it.  The next day.. drop more.. 59 days.. then 58 days.. etc.  After day 0 the gloves come off.  We unleash the Krakken and bury the country.  Welcome to 100 years ago and good luck finding your way back to the future.  No rebuilding, no policing, nothing.

Pack up and go home.  Change affected.  There are more side effects of this type of policy.  If anyone is really interested I'll mention them later.  The plus side is we don't spend dollars or lives beyond the initial investment and we don't have to put our warfighters in a role that they're not well suited for.  I know it sounds somewhat draconian but it would only take one or two examples to make the point.  Walk softly, carry a big stick, and when you beat someone with the stick don't help them back up, buy them dinner, a beer, a new house and a new car.  That's what we're doing now and it's WRONG.

[Broin]

We currently occupy 150 countries around the world, many of them of which have no desire for us to be there.  Not only that but we're tangled up in a handful of war like escapades that we have zero business being a part of.  The MIC has been sucking money from the US tax payer for many many years while leaving a trail of dead bodies that covers the globe.  We have no right to do what we're doing and we especially do not have the money to pay for it.

When he says he'll bring the troops home, the way that I've heard him say it is that he's starting with the combat operations and slowly will start closing bases around the world.

Yeah I see NOTHING wrong with this whatsoever.  Especially when the world is screaming "Leave us alone".

All of this said, I'd LOVE to see a detailed plan as to what he has in mind and how exactly this would be executed.  Obviously none of this can happen over night however, it would be SUPER to have a president at the wheel that says what he means.  I was so let down by Obama's lies of bringing the troops home.

And you called me ignorant.  I love it.  Simple fact is that the times that the "MIC" didn't get "involved" in things that you "don't think we belong in" hundres of thousands and millions of poeple were killedby the dictators and tyrants that we let run amuck.

Simple fact is you are alive and living in the in the freedom you live in because of the "MIC".  

Don't forget that you live in the luxury that you do because of the life blood of others who sacrfice at the altar of freedom.

Because despite the fact that so many have become complacent and ignorant of where their freedom comes from it doesn't discount the truth that freedom comes from the death of those brave souls who sacrafice all to defend you against those who would use you as a whipping boy for their own amusement.  Before they cut your head off for laughs.

It's okay it truley isn't your fault.  I blame it on the socialists and communist that have taken over our political system and news media.  You know those who hate America becuase we are America.  

you know those guys who see us as the reason for evil in the world instead of the only real true force of good that can confront evil where it appears.

Personallly I say we pull up stakes everwhere let teh massacres happen to those we are protecting just so we can hear people who complain about us being there complain about us not being there and letting all those innocent people die.

[likwidtek]

The point being, isolationism has proven to be disastrous in the past (you may have heard of WWII)

You confuse isolationism with Non-interventionism.  

And you called me ignorant.  I love it.  Simple fact is that the times that the "MIC" didn't get "involved" in things that you "don't think we belong in" hundres of thousands and millions of poeple were killedby the dictators and tyrants that we let run amuck.

Please, you're telling me that we are using 900 military installations in 150 countries to prevent dictators and tyrants rising up?  That's total horseshit and you know it.  We're out there kicking the shit out of people, imposing our will on the world so that 1) Defense contracts get sold and 2) to keep money, power and valuable resources of the world in the control of a relatively small group of people.

Our military has done good in the past.  But that can't be an excuse to "spread democracy" throughout the world and impose our ideal of freedom with an iron fist.

This fucking guy right here said it best in my opinion:

[Ash]

PLEASE READ!

http://thefuriousangels.com/index.php?msg=94333

Hopefully I wont have to do this a third time...

[Broin]

Please, you're telling me that we are using 900 military installations in 150 countries to prevent dictators and tyrants rising up?  That's total horseshit and you know it.  We're out there kicking the shit out of people, imposing our will on the world so that 1) Defense contracts get sold 2) Money, Power and valuable resources of the world are in the control of a relatively small group of people.

Our military has done good in the past.  But that can't be an excuse to "spread democracy" throughout the world and impose our ideal of freedom with an iron fist.

Yup that's what I'm saying.  

And I truley am sorry for you Likwid.  Must be sad to live in a world where you believe such hateful things about your own country and people.  

You don't spread democracy and freedom.  It just happens.  It is the natural yearning of a person to want to have self determination in their life.  

I'm sure when we went back into Iraq you were one of the guys who said we were going for the oil.  No blood for oil.  Tell me Likwid where is the oil?  We didn't go in and take it?

Do you realize that if we wanted to.  I mean if we really wanted to rule with an iron fist we could decimate anyone.  And I mean anyone who stood in our way.  

But we don't.  I don't think you can even pick out an instance where we are out in the world today suppresing people into freedom and democracy.  

You know I don't talk about this stuff much but I've got friends and family members who served and died over in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places that you'll never hear or know about.  

They didn't go and die to suppress people.  They didn't go and die because someone told them to.  We don't follow people blindly in our military despite all the ridiculous movies and tv shows and other crap they make up saying that we do.  They went and died because they believed that it would help keep you and yours safe.  

And it does...

Again I don't blame you for your thoughts.  I think it's systematic with your age group.  I see it in so many to varying degrees.  You've lost a sense of what it means to be an American.  What the sacrafices it entails.  How much is asked of so few, and how willing those few are to give.

It's the world of lies that has been woven over time into a smothering bag which has been pulled over your eyes.

I'll simply close with don't discount the lifes of those who have given up their own lives.  Whose parents, spouses, and children will never have another minute of time with them.  Don't discount that life given so freely to you, to all of us, by saying that they died so that our country can rule others....

It is simply not true