randomness

[Phienyx]

 hehe
That got a reaction.

[Fuse]

A nice, calm and respectable lady went into the pharmacy, walked up to the Pharmacist, looked straight into his eyes, and said, "I would like to buy some Cyanide."
The pharmacist asked, "Why in the world do you need cyanide?"
The lady replied, "I need it to poison my husband."

The pharmacist's eyes got big and he exclaimed,
"Lord have mercy! I can't give you cyanide to kill your husband.. That's against the law! I'll lose my license! They'll throw both of us in jail! All kinds of bad things will happen. Absolutely not! You CANNOT have any cyanide!"

The lady reached into her purse and pulled out a picture of her husband in bed with the pharmacist's wife.
The pharmacist looked at the picture and replied,

"Well now, that's different. You didn't tell me you had a prescription."

ziiing!

[Fuse]

I started freeking out man...

[Da6onet]

First off, I am glad to be a Libertarian. Secondly, you can't solely blame our politicians for botching things up. After all, we elected them; so what does that say about what we the people want?

California is the ultimate example of what happens when you trust the public to decide what programs to fund. They had referendums left and right for decades and now they have it much worse than the rest of the country as far as state deficit goes (even worse than Michigan) because the majority choose everything on the menu and expect someone else at the table to pick up the tab, only nobody else can afford it.

I believe there is a simple explanation for this result. Budgeting actually requires an above average intelligence not only to contemplate, but to overcome baser impulses for successful follow through. Thus for every one person that can follow a budget (smart person), there are two who cannot (the average person and dumb ass person).

Taxes feel shitty, entitlements feel good. You can sacrifice your own entitlements, but you can't make another person sacrifice theirs.

Though I would love it if we paid taxes a la carte rather than prix fixe menu.

Imagine buying a pack of cigarettes and having to select an option at the register that asks whether you would like to put the tax money toward health care programs, cancer research, or enforcing illegal immigration :-)

[Fuse]

Taxes aren't the problem. The problem is them trying to fund everything. If people were more responsible for themselves and didn't need the gov to front the bill for so much there wouldn't be as much of an issue. Their job should be to simply say "NO!" to most bills - this will cut spending, and cut the need for higher taxes.
There are soooo many other issues involved though. Simply put, I don't feel any of my elected officials have any clue how the general public feels.

[Lithium]

Do people not understand the voting process? Do they not know what a voting booth is?

We know from past experiences that you don't vote?

[Da6onet]

Taxes aren't the problem. The problem is them trying to fund everything. If people were more responsible for themselves and didn't need the gov to front the bill for so much there wouldn't be as much of an issue. Their job should be to simply say "NO!" to most bills - this will cut spending, and cut the need for higher taxes.
There are soooo many other issues involved though. Simply put, I don't feel any of my elected officials have any clue how the general public feels.

Cynical comment:
We can't ever expect people as a whole to become less groveling, more responsible, and actually contribute to society. Expecting as much is just as naive as liberals expecting everyone to participate in a mass orgy.

Optimistic historical observation:
The wisest leaders in history, were the ones who ceded power.

[Tbone]

Do people not understand the voting process? Do they not know what a voting booth is?

We know from past experiences that you don't vote?

I finally got my voting card for VA, thank you, but the point is I respect the process and the leaders chosen. Even though I didn't agree with much of what Bush did, that didn't make me feel like the whole government was corrupt and needed to be done away with just because I didn't agree with them.

I agree with Dag's cynical comment that you can't expect people to not be poor and not be irresponsible. And in that group of people there will always be those who deserve a break and have had rough times and those who have only themselves to blame and should deal with their own consequences. The difference is whether you believe it is better to help those in need or abandon all who have fallen under hard circumstances. The systems in place try to filter it out, but there's only so much you can do.

I just don't like the noise...the gimmicks that people use to try to prove a point that has nothing to do with their argument. Let's call the president a "socialist", health care reform "death panels", and chant over and over again that America is dying and end times are near. Also, let's not forget that there's a "real" America, consisting of people who agree with your point of view, and then the "liberal agenda" America consisting of, based on the last election, a majority of American voters by a landslide.

I'm from Mississippi. Last time I went home, I observed. My family only watches Fox News. My grandparents take everything that's said on that channel as the truth, even if it's from an opinion-based show projecting worst-case scenarios. After numerous debates with my friends and some family, it just seems like they don't acknowledge the rest of the country. The east coast is tainted...the west coast is tainted...it's evil heathen territory. Gays are evil...the media is evil...the government is evil...non-Americans are evil...your pastor is God. I don't mind people having different opinions...even extreme ones...but having such a polarizing attitude scares me a bit.

So instead of people spreading around some old, 80-yr old man's rant (I'm assuming he's around that age with 50 years of journalism behind him) about how the government is bad because it represents the majority while protecting the minority instead of it being a screaming match between 300 million people, maybe they should use that energy to really discuss and debate the real issues...although those "Obama is the Anti-Christ" emails are pretty amusing!

Note: I wanted to clarify that I don't think every conservative/republican is ignorant and thinks everyone and everything is evil. My concern is that there is a lot of them, though, and the conservative movement as a whole seems to support that view and encourages the extremist attitude (a la showing up at the town hall with a loaded gun and disrupt things by yelling that nobody trusts Obama..."real" Americans finally being heard...)

[Fuse]

I think most people who voted for Obama didn't realize what they were voting for, or at least what they were going to get. People call his policies Socialistic because according to the definition of Socialism, they are.

"The difference is whether you believe it is better to help those in need or abandon all who have fallen under hard circumstances."
The more important factor - which will be the difference between capitalism and socialism - is do you believe people should be forced into helping?

[Manic Velocity]

I started freeking out man...

Mind = Blown

[Da6onet]

"The difference is whether you believe it is better to help those in need or abandon all who have fallen under hard circumstances."
The more important factor - which will be the difference between capitalism and socialism - is do you believe people should be forced into helping?

Interesting you mention that, because Republicans actually give more to charity than Democrats! (source)

And yes I know RCP is conservative leaning (to say the least), but I still agree to an extent with that article's conclusions based on my own experiences and especially after reading some of the autobiographical thoughts of Ted Kennedy (think guilty conscience).

edit:
I agree with Tbone that social conservatives, fundamentalists, etc. are very scary. What's worse is my mother is one of them :-/

[Tbone]

"The difference is whether you believe it is better to help those in need or abandon all who have fallen under hard circumstances."
The more important factor - which will be the difference between capitalism and socialism - is do you believe people should be forced into helping?

Interesting you mention that, because Republicans actually give more to charity than Democrats! (source)

edit:
I agree with Tbone that social conservatives, fundamentalists, etc. scare the hell out of me. What's worse is my mother is one of them :-/

"Forced into helping" as in paying taxes? Once again, there's no way you are going to argue that there should be no taxes...there will always be death and taxes, unless you live on your own island...and then there's still death. The question is where should that tax money go? You're going to be paying it regardless, even in a capitalist society.

And as for Republicans giving more to charity, of course they do. It's called tax breaks! http://www.ehow.com/how_4495728_get-tax-breaks-charity-giving.html

[Fuse]

You still haven't answered the question. Do you believe people should be paying for other peoples health (or other assistance), or should the primary responsibilty be on that person, and use charity (medicaid/idpa as examples for healthcare) as a secondary source of help?

I do think that government (rep and dem) take too much money from ALL working Americans, and give it to useless, or inappropriate programs. Plus it is grossly mismanaged to many of the public service items it does go to. As an American in a republic, it is indeed our job to argue how that money is collected, managed, and spent.

You talk as though we should not have any say in where our tax dollars go - if we have no say, how can you claim that the hints of socialism are 'gimmicks'? You can't just say 'eh, taxes are a way of life, they can take all they want and spend it on whatever' and smile.

There's nothing wrong with asking "Why do I have to pay for this?" or "Why can't I keep the money I earn and spend/donate it the way I see as best for my family and peers?" My answer to what I, personally, see as best for my family and peers (peers being the general population) is infrustructure. Highways/roads, electricity, water pipes/treatment etc...  Health insurance I look at in the same way I look at car insurance - you can't afford a great plan, you buy a lower quality plan you can afford and get less service. Once you complete your college degree, or finally decide you are uncomfortable in your current economic state and get a better job you buy a better policy and get better coverage. Yes, sometimes it is difficult to do, but if you want nice things, you have to bust ass sometimes.
And to reply to your "Life, Liberty, and pursuit of happiness" comment from the other thread, the quote is "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." yet the original draft was "That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, ...." which gives a better context that the meaning is no one shall take a life, or cause a hindrance to it. It does not in any way state that providing life, or assisting in another's health is a right, or a role given to government.

[ArchNemesis]

You talk as though we should not have any say in where our tax dollars go - if we have no say, how can you claim that the hints of socialism are 'gimmicks'? You can't just say 'eh, taxes are a way of life, they can take all they want and spend it on whatever' and smile.

The question is where should that tax money go? You're going to be paying it regardless, even in a capitalist society.

Just thought i would point that out.


Personally, the government and basis of it was made in SUCH a long time ago and the fact that all that was said ("Life, Liberty, Pursuit of happiness and such") Was during a time where things were much simpler and thus the context of it is stretched for our time now where things are much, much harder and more complex. I'm with Tbone, in the sense that there will be taxes... The government can't be sustained without it. However there's TONS of stuff that is government funded that most people don't even know about....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eV6Wh-KX3bY

It's interesting as hell and can be considered as art but... Come on.

[Tbone]

Personally, I feel that, left to their own devices, mankind will choose that which benefits himself the most, forsaking the rest. It's basic survival technique. Selfishness is, to an extent, coded within us, and we have to fight against that to make sacrifices for those that don't impact us.

Not to get too far off subject, but take gay rights, for instance. Gays are a minority. If you leave something like that up to the majority, the majority's natural instinct is to protect themselves first, no matter how twisted that "defense mechanism" is. So in California, for instance, a majority voted against gay marriage (technically a reversal of prop . Were they thinking about the well-being of others? No. They were primarily concerned with their own agenda and defending their own marriage or religion or what have you. I believe the minority deserves the same rights and equality. I'm very sensitive to the "mob mentality". I've seen it many times...up close and in the news. That may be cynical, but there's truth to it.

In terms of "deciding where your money goes". I think there should be some flexibility with that, though it's arrogant to think that you really know what needs the money and what doesn't. You may want the road on your block fixed, but putting all your tax money into roads could just be used to build a "bridge to nowhere". I believe we should put the well-being of our fellow humans first, so things like proper health care for everyone should be a must. For God's sake, people...half of us are running around with iPhones. Our society has portable micro-computers but we don't have the resources to keep the less fortunate healthy? So I guess my answer is that regulated flexibility might work, but ultimately I think that would cause a huge deficit in really important programs while less-needed projects like filling that pothole that makes you slow down a little on your way to work will have waaay too much money behind it.

Eh...I work with mass amounts of people as a living...people are greedy, impatient, arrogant sons of bitches by default...at least on the east coast! Haha!