Alternative Clan

[Demiabeille]

It was mentioned in chat and on another thread here I can't find, about members 'leaving' the clan if they want to have some safe time crafting etc, re-joining when it's time to do some PVP.

I don't agree with the idea much, however, what do people think about creating a second clan for covert ops? Anyone who needs a quiet week due to not having much time in game, wants to safely craft in NPC cities, or even wants to roam around King's scoping out the enemy to provide information could join this.

Personally I think I will be quitting this game due to the wars we are having, because I am not at a high enough combat skill level yet to compete and am getting nowhere. Even in our new location I get ganked fairly often and many evenings I don't bother to login because I know I will just get pissed off and have my night wasted. Don't see this as an ultimatum or anything, this is just how I feel.

So this seems a nice alternative to me, and maybe to some others who feel the same.

Don't know what our glorious leaders opinions of this would be. We're small, and we hardly need our numbers hurt more. However, it's also bad practice to allow our enemies to get easy kills from people who are not PVP ready. We should protect our vulnerable members and the game world does not allow for that - I think this method could, if we handled it carefully, placed limits on how many could go covert at any given time, and have a time limit of say a week to be covert. We would also ally up, of course, and the new clan bank could be used to furnish certain equipment for crafting or low level PvEing. It should also be kept secret from new members if possible until they are trusted not to be spies, and potentially the name could change every now and then depending on logistics (how much does it take to found a clan?).

[Erathaol]

I actually don't think this is that bad of an idea.  Now, I'd PREFER that you just stick with it and eventually you'll be "viable" in PvP (whatever that means, I only have Archery barely past 25 as my highest combat skill and I'm not totally useless in PvP).  But, for those who aren't having fun with things as they are (it is a game after all, so it should be fun) and think this could change it so the game is fun again, why not implement a secret branch of FA for the purposes outlined by Demi?

Maybe there's something I'm not seeing, but if we could afford a second shadow clan then I think we should.  I know Demi isn't the only person feeling this way, and I think it would benefit us more than it would hinder us.

[ArchNemesis]

Well, there is the other option of just leaving the guild... although i don't know if there is a timer on leaving or going back to the guild... not sure.

It's not a bad idea to be honest but i'm sure other will catch on...

[Demiabeille]

Well, the reason I think just leaving is a bad idea is because that way is an easy way to lose track of members. My idea is less of a cop-out. I hear there is a 20 minute calm down time before you can join another guild or re-join your old one - I am sure that was in some patch notes. I guess that would give enough time for members who want to go do PVP or sieging etc to change over.

Otherwise, yeah, I'll probably have to leave if I want to get my crafting skills high which is what I mainly am trying to do in UK daytime while no one's around. It is too risky to even try it.

However, I don't want to actually leave the guild entirely, because I like it. I still think that leadership here ought to make some provision for those in guild who  can't/won't focus on PVP. I am sure a good portion of the survival and future expansion of the clan depends on crafting skills and not just PVP. Think of the children!

[Broin]

Think of the children!

LOL...

I've been able to farm and craft at Ireindir or however you spell it for the past several days all day long without much incident.  However, I think those days are coming to an end quickly....  

You bring up some good points that need to be discusse and worked out.  We definatley need people who are dedicated to the gathering and crafting portion of the game.  Last night is case in point to that...

We made 20 siege hammers at a cost of about 320 iron ingots and 160 wood and 20 Golem spark stone.  We used them to destory Britannia's bank but the durability goes quickly on them so we need to replenish the supply.

[Demiabeille]

Yep I too have been able to farm a bit, but whenever I log in at EU peak time (evening) in particular, there's someone I'm at war with hanging around in Ireindir, which lays waste to all my gathering plans. Or any plans at all, if I am unable to defeat them. I suspect that this will get much worse now we are at war with Oromea, as I imagine that other allied clans will also declare war on us. They know where we are, Oromea are often around Ireindir, and there will be few places in the world that will be safe.

Remains to be seen, I suppose.

[Tbone]

I do not like this idea. In a way, it's trying to work around the game mechanics. It's a pretty cheap tactic, and one that I would think less of another clan if I found out they did it. Much like Oromea sold their soul by allying with Alfars to protect their city, I feel like we'd be selling our soul by dropping tag to protect our crafters.

We're not just warring with people for the hell of it, either. Every fight we are currently in was pretty much beyond our control. The only one that we've declared is Oromea, and I made sure that people had a chance to speak against that before I declared.

We're doing our best to recruit and protect our members. If you think you have to drop tag to have a good time, you might as well join another guild.

[Demiabeille]

No need to be offended, T; it was merely a suggestion. I am hardly suggesting it for my own fun levels as I could just as easily leave as you said. However I happen to believe in the clan and the cause - this is an area of concern for me.

We are supposed to be defenders of our race. If that means a group of pvp vigilantes then that's what you have now, for surt tre is no grand plan beyond that. Other clans laugh at us because we are small and they kick our asses a bit. If they continue to kill the newer or more passive people in the clan it serves no purpose other than embarrassment. We can't protect mirendil if we are unable to protect our members. We also won't attract new members because of the seriopus disadvantage newcomers will have when our name hovers over their heads. Without newcomers we won't grow and... Don't you see a vicious circle forming?

I also don't see it as exploiting anything. You wouldn't expect a tribe to send its crafters or children to war or leave them unprotected as they are your most valuable asset. You figure out a way to hide and nurture them. I would be very surprised if many of the supposedly full on pvp clans didn't emply the same tactic when they need to get some crafting grind done to make boats and whatnot.

There's just no point in prentending to be above everyone else playing this game to the detriment of everything we do. We will lose out in the end and be eradicated.

Perhaps you don't see this happening in your peak time so aren't aware of what its like to be ganked over and over while someone trash talks about you being in the lamest clan on the server. If we don't start playing smarter we certainly will fulfil that reputation.

Anyway, you're the boss, I'm just some noob brit, so ignore away and I won't mind as its only a game see you tomorrow as I'm not around tonight (ah the joy of mobile internet on long bus rides).

[Tbone]

You just can't let it get to you. People are going to trash talk you regardless. We're obviously not the worst clan on the server, or even close. We managed to find a way to defend our hamlet when we had no big alliance backing us. We were the ONLY clan to have territory on the map while NOT being in an alliance. Last night we almost single-handedly took out a DUSK hamlet's bank. We constantly aggrivate The Vindicators to the point that they hire a Mirdain clan just to hunt us down in territory they can't get to. We're one of the few who hasn't felt weak enough to join up with a large alliance just so our crafters will be safe.

That's a sacrifice, I know, but you can go back and check my posts. I warned everyone that we were not taking the easy road in this game. That you needed to get used to not having a safe place, to getting hunted, to have to use the shadows to your advantage and strike with precision. I'm not under any sort of bubble of protection. I've died just as much, if not more, than most of you. That SupremeGeneral tag makes you real popular with the gank squads.

We've been getting a steady line of recruits. We still have several interviews lined up. We're not in any danger of getting eradicated. We were getting ganked in this game before we even had enough money to start the clan. Nothing you do is going to change that fact. We've grouped up with several other factions who are more than willing to come to our aid, especially near Iriendir. If you stay there, you should be relatively safe. Kill Cult have been showing up a bit, so just keep one eye open and don't walk around with stuff you can't afford to lose (with crafting, do small amounts at a time and bank often).

I've been seeing our members on at all times of the day, as well. I've been on since about 1:00 EST, which is about 6 where you are, and we've had at least 6 members on the entire time. And that's on a Tuesday. We're still getting things done, despite the tide not turning in our favor. We don't have a huge city with guard towers, but if we did, you'd be complaining that you can't get anything done because you are always getting called on to defend or attack someone.

If you want to venture out and see if you can find a safer place than Iriendir, please do. For now, we take the good with the bad and keep on fighting!

[likwidtek]

Demi I sympathize with you for sure.  This game is unforgiving and you really have two things going against you.  1) You're specializing in crafting (thank you for that by the way), and 2) You're grouped with a controversial and targeted (at the moment) clan.  For non-combat oriented folk, this is definitely hard mode.  Is it hard?  Without a doubt.  Is it worth it?  I believe so.

Here's some ideas that could help but first let's get a little information.  What clans most often do you find running around within guard tower limit in Iriendir that gank you?  List them for me the best you can.

Our alliance and our numbers are growing.  I'm not sure if you've done much chit chat in clan alliance but they are great guys.  If there is not enough of us on and you smell trouble, you should not be afraid to ask them for some backup.  Especially if you're going to be at the crafting station, feel free to hire some guards (I'd guess that they wouldn't accept payment but it would be good to offer I suppose).  I can help you with gold and mats if need be.  Once you tell us what clans they are, I can find out for you if our allies are also at war with them.  if our allies are also at war with them, then hell that's a bonus.

Are any of our new allies on while you're on as well?

You also have a few things going for you as well.  You've got a great personality and are a really nice person so use that to your advantage.  Befriend people, especially EU/UK people like yourself during your peak hours.  You can also assist with our recruitment efforts!  More EU members would be amazing and would benefit not only the clan but yourself as well.

The other thing you have going for you as well is the obvious.  You're a chick.  lol... you're aware that as soon as anyone realizes this, you're basically going to be fawned over and doted on.  So hell, use that to your advantage as well.  I'm sure TONS of our allies (not to mention our own members... hell any average darkfall nerd like myself) would drop everything and give you anything you need not only because we're helpful great guys and you're a cool person but cause we're all nerdy guys!  (Guaranteed if you say just a few sentences in the clan alliance ventrillo server you will have an army of protectors.)

I'm half way serious here.  

Anyway Demi, if there's anything you want or need let us know.  Yes this game is super hard and we will lose so many pixels it's not even funny but man there are so many things for me that make it worth it for me.  I want to make sure you have the same experience while being able to rock the FA tag as well.

[Demiabeille]

I think this post has been misread. Thanks for your offers of help, I am most grateful. Thing is, this post wasn't intended to be an extension of my general complaints and frustrations about the game, my inability to play it as often I would like in order to keep up with the hardcore mentality, and my apparent uselessness at PvP in general. That has been covered elsewhere and I've resigned myself to trying harder and trying to figure out a way to have fun. My fun levels are my own responsibility and I wouldn't put any pressure on the clan to change anything they are doing for my own selfish needs.

This post was created to confront some problems I foresee with what has been happening in the clan. I am in no way personally offended by other clans' trash talk. It is more an offence on behalf of the clan.

Much of the reason I suggested this tactic was because of a conversation I had with someone in teamspeak (cannot remember for the life of me who) who mentioned that in their EVE clan, when war was declared, members would be forbidden to leave stations unless in a controlled PvP group. The whole point of this was to protect the integrity of the clan by preventing the enemy clans from gaining easy kills from miners, solo or less experienced players. It is a harsh thing to impose on players, as leaving the clan meant you could achieve absolutely nothing in game other than messing with the giant spreadsheet game that is EVE online

So that made me think; yes. It is wise for a clan to have a plan when they decide to go to war. Of course we cannot help that clans like winterblades are at war with us, but they have never been anything other than a general pest. K D S are at war with us because we actually chose to go on the offensive and annoy the Vindicators. That decision affected the clan as a whole. The decision to go to war with Oromea, one of the largest clans on the server, also affects the clan as a whole.

This decision shouldn't be made without serious thought on tactical advantage. Our clan relies very much on it's mysterious qualities. If other clans are able to kill members left alone crafting, gathering, or soloing at goblins, this allows them to easily hurt us. It may not be a quantifiable hurt - after all we have no city or resources to be taken or damaged. Where it hurts us is less visible. Our less experienced members. Our members who would like to focus on crafting. Our reputation. These things are precious, and when members start to leave the game, or the clan, because they can't persue these careers, or cannot bear the embarrassment of membership because they don't have the mental strength of our leader, you will only be left with the core membership we have now. We will never be able to expand, and it will continue as it is now.

I can see that my idea was thrown aside because you are starting to see me as a troublemaker - I am honest in my opinions and will not sit idly by and pretend that everything is fine. I am ok with that. I hope that you will take this opinion as one I see to be of benefit to the clan, and not myself. What I do not want to see is the general struggle against impossible odds because people are not willing to consider other ways out of the situation.

There you are, my two pence. There's no point going on about it any further as Tbone has made his opinion quite clear. I hope he will re-think it at some point in the future. This doesn't mean that my suggestion is the only possible way out. There could be other methods. As far as I can see, something must be done. Discuss at your leisure.

See you in game amigos!

[Demiabeille]

p.s. I haven't ignored Likwid's post above, I spoke to him yesterday ;-) Me, rude? Never! I am British!

This also means I would NEVER use my femininity to advance myself in gaming communities. Definitely not.

[ZephixLeer (Zephic)]

I have to toss in here that I do agree with the point made here about protecting our crafters. Some of us play at really off hours and have 0 protection other than ourselves when mining or crafting. It was less of an issue before than now. I've seen people flagged at war with us in the city multiple times now and feel like I really have nowhere left to run. -And yes, I have to run as my pvp skills simply arent there yet.

Gankers are one thing... I can deal with being ganked and losing gear. I can even deal with disconnecting due to an error in the game and coming back dead with no gear. Heck, I could even deal with the occasional gank by an at-war guild. -The issue now is that we are being targeted by multiple at-war guilds in every city. Not just Kings or our old hamlet... but EVERY city. I cant get online and go a full mining run without having to hide or run from an opposing faction.

Hardmode may be good for some of our more veteran players, but for those of us who are relatively new and only just getting our first sets of banded... man, losing 50 ore can really sting. Losing 50 ore once a day... that can make you want to quit.

Now, as Demi even said, I don't believe any of us are thinking of quitting seriously, or ever dropping guild. The point here is more so that it is an issue and that it needs to be addressed. I'm sure that our leaders have discussed it and realize the situation we are in even more than we do. -Tbone himself has been the sole target of some gank squads in the new town. That can't be fun. Lost 500 timber yesterday from what I recall.

I don't want to be labeled a whiner or someone who can't handle being ganked. Losing my gear in-game is expected. The issue is more time than anything. Some of us have very little time to play and are working very hard to squeeze in extra hours to grind our skills out a bit. -Some of us at very off-peak hours. It wouldn't be bad if we were on-line with everyone else, but when we have the option of partnering with our naked allies or running solo... we basically have 0 options that will protect us.

So, how do we resolve it? Not sure. -I also do not agree with dropping guild. However, I think my point of this whole post was to vent a bit and perhaps make it known there are more out there who think this needs some serious guild discussion, rather than a post or two, other than just Demi. I hope everyone can consider where some of us are at here and either make suggestions or provide some hope that things will get a bit easier in some way on those of us that are on at off-hours. Thanks.

[ArchNemesis]

Honestly, These wars are hurting their morale as much if not more then us. We are starting to pick ourselves up and make allies that mean something. Talk with them, many of them are usually down for just about anything. Ask them if they are farming if you can join them and do a farming party. We gained another ally guild today. Just gotta stick with it ... Take initiative, talk to some folks and ask them to party or group for whatever it may be. This is how our Stealth attack runs, Inarith attacks, and many other forms of group activities were made... just by taking the initiative and saying "Hey anyone wanna do this?" It may or may not work out the first time but how else are you gonna get people to play if we don't take the initiative?

Also, you guys keep saying you aren't ready for PVP, or not skilled up enough...

Skills give you an Edge, they do NOT by ANY means make you win. Your skills come from getting your feet wet and NOT running away. You will die A LOT. Likwid and anyone else that was there the first day i got to inarith can attest but that is the ONLY way you will get better. Sparing won't help that much since people don't use the same tactics nor do they carry the same items with them. Get in there and fight. Don't be afraid to lose what you have because if you run, you will 90% of the time lose it. I know from experience and trust me when i say you have to fight. My K/d ratio was like... 1/25. it was Horrid. I'm now balancing it out at 1/2. Not the best but it shows that there is progress. If you really wanna try to make it in a fight, bring pots. Wear armor.

Am i saying to be fully geared out? Not at all. Get yourself a hybrid of chain and studded or leather (I can make some, ask if you need and i'll make it gladly) and stop doing things naked or in cloth. Hotbar your food and your pots and use them when you need to. They won't do you any good if you just leave em in the bank to rot.


Phew, ok let me get to the topic of our allies..

Most of these guys are at war with Oromea, Winterblades, etc anyway....  Before i go to bed these guys are usually on clan alliance asking for anyone to join hunting parties and such.

I think the only ones they aren't at war with is K D S... Which perhaps we could shed some light on that for our allies should it really get that bad.

[Tbone]

There's no magic solution to this. If you think you're being made fun of now, try creating an alternate clan to be safe and see what kind of names you are called when people find out. Peace treaty? Then what's the point of what we're doing?

Stick around Iriendir and USE clan alliance chat. They'll usually point out if Oromea or the like are in the area, or if you spot someone, head towards the center of town and let clan alliance know you're being followed. At least there is a city that is relatively safe for us. The ones to the south of Iriendir are going to be more dangerous. Make sure you get on TS and see who else is online. Try to do things as a group.

Truth is I'm not being ganked anymore now then I was on day one. I think what you're experiencing is a natural part of the game (Day 1 it was Winterblades who stayed in town 24/7 ganking us anytime we went in the city, beyond our control). It will always be someone doing something. No, we don't have a monster city like Tughri to protect you, but those people get ganked around Tughri as well.

Losing 50 ore a day is part of the game. You should expect to lose about that if you are gathering/crafting the entire time. If you don't lose it, then you had a good day. If you wanna feel better about things, strike back. Even if you don't think your PvP skils are uber leet, most gatherers will instinctively run when attacked. Sneak down to where they are gathering and get your freakin ore back. Harder to do solo, but you'll be getting your run, sprint, swim, crouch walk, riding, melee, defense skills up while doing it. If you think in terms of skilling up, you never lose