Proposed New FA Schedule

[Tbone]

I've been working on a new weekly schedule of events for FA. My idea was to incorporate more group activities that the entire guild could get involved with. I've added a PvP Patrol, where we split off to different planets looking for trouble and then all converge if we find griefers. I've also blocked off time for people to split off into groups for flashpoints, so that those of you that claim you can't find people to do this with will have a set time where you shouldn't have a problem. I've also tried to make Likwidtek's "fun night" a weekly thing involving the PvP patrol, datcron runs, world bosses, or whatever other drunken debauchery arises.

The other big thing I've proposed to change is the way raids work. This is mostly to combat the "clique" perception. While I personally believe that having dedicated teams is the best way so succeed in both PvP and raids, many of you are using this as an excuse to claim that this is an attempt to exclude some of you. This is far from the truth, but rather than point out the flaws in that argument, I'm just going to see if changing up the way grouping works will solve the issue.

This involves two big changes. First, the elimination of permanent rosters for raids and teams for PvP. Each event will just be blocked out time and the first who sign up that fit the requirements (DPS/healer/tank) will be in for that time slot. The second is dissolving Raid Group #2 and expanding Raid Group #1 into a 16 man. I did this to make room for Ranked PvP as well as to allow a larger group of raiders so that more people are included. I realize that this prevents me from raiding, but I'm willing to make that sacrifice if it makes things better for the guild. I also realize that this may exclude some of our West coast members who were relying on that time. I don't really have a solution for that other than the weekend raid, unfortunately.

This schedule is hypothetical at the moment. I'd like feedback before making any permanent changes. For now things are remaining the same. Please let me know what you think and what you feel should change or remain the same.

Proposed Schedule:

Monday:
6 p.m. Ranked Warzones - first to sign up (External)
8:00 p.m. Staff Meeting
8:30 p.m. Meeting and Interviews (Tbone, Broin, Ana)
10:00 p.m. PvP Patrol (Tbone, Broin, Ana)

Tuesday:
7 p.m. 16-man raid (Mharz) - first to sign up
10 p.m. Ranked Warzones - first to sign up

Wednesday:
7 p.m. Ranked Warzones - first to sign up (External, other Masters)
10 p.m. Group flashpoints (all available Masters)

Thursday:
7 p.m. 16-man raid (Mharz) - first to sign up
10 p.m. Ranked Warzones - first to sign up

Friday:
7 p.m. Drinking Night (PvP Patrol, World Bosses, Datacrons) (Likwidtek, External, other Masters) -flexible

Saturday:
3 p.m. (or whenever this is happening) 8-man raid (External) - first to sign up
7 p.m. Free time, schedule whatever you'd like

Sunday:
Open - schedule whatever you'd like

[Anamodiel]

Two days for raids?! Say it isn't so!

Damn you, PVPers.

Now I feel obligated to show up to the meeting tonight...

[Strod]

I don't agree with non dedicated teams. I realize its an experiment and a testing ground but if a serious dedicated team isn't going to pursue pvp, I won't be taking pvp too serious then. The whole people thinking they are being left out is just plain ridiclious.

[NoCry]

As I said elsewhere. Not convinced on the need for the wholesale rejig. Personally I had heard that the clique related comments were more for pvp war zones and hms - not raids.

As for raids why change what is working? The Saturday (and frankly group 3 was/ is doing Sunday's) early raid allowed our eu members to game with our american brethren and be sure of a raid experience. If the raid changes go through it will make the planning mharz etc did redundant and ensure that EU and the more casual players run the risk of losing out on the only dedicated raid (in time) they can make.

Sorry - cant come to meeting but I would have said the above. I would also add that we are at risk of over legislating.

What I would say however is that I think it great that these issues are being discussed and would urge everyone , new and old, to put their point of view across in an open manner. We masters hear what you guys are saying however you can be sure that for everyone  of you making a point to us there is someone else making the counter argument.

Ps. As for the west coasters - just reread T's post. Perhaps the solution for Saturday/ Sunday raid is priority for EU/ west coasters then free for all?

[Sared]

I think three hours of raiding is going to leave anyone that potentially wanted to PVP as well in a tough spot.

I also have no interest in carrying others through a raid. Group 2 should have been doing Nightmare mode by now if it weren't for one or two roster setbacks. Now that's cleaned off the board entirely, and I'll have to wait as two new raid teams are formed, gear up, learn how to play together, and fine tune their cohesion until we have a group of individuals ready to broach that content again.

I took too long and Strod beat me to posting, but I agree 200%, people thinking they are being left out is silly beyond belief.

[Longboard]

Sounds like tonight will be a meeting that should not be missed.

I'm up in the air on some of the issues outlined here but I do appreciate T-Bone taking the time to attempt to resolve them. One thing is for sure, we will get it all worked out.

[JazzyC]

This post will probably contradict itself...

I believe things were good as they were.  Perhaps requiring a minor tweak or addition.
We need dedicated teams for both PvP and Raids.  While not a big PvPer I would glean the same reasons for dedicated teams in that, as in Raids.  A team that practices together and works together will perform far better than those that are thrown together each week.

Being in Raid 3, and yet unable to do a HM, I believe I am speaking for several when I say we would love to move on from Normal mode and start getting stuck into HM.  I can see the reasons we haven't hit HM, while Groups 1 and 2 have.  We're always hitting a roster issue.  While the specifics of the issue do not blame anyone, or cast anyone in a bad light, I shall leave those issues for discussion with members of the raid.

I think what the schedule lacks is any meaningful pathway for new people to come into the dedicated groups and participate.  Again, speaking in Raid specifics, if all the raid groups were doing were HM or Nightmare, we would leave the Normal Mode free.  Such modes would be free for those up and comers to join in with a few experienced (lets say a 50/50 split) and get to grips with the mechanics, gear and group aspects.  As these people gear up through the open-to-all HM Flashpoints and Normal mode raids, they could join a dedicated raid group.  

That pathway means your assured these people have experience in the raid, along with the gear.  A few extras in the raid groups could allow for first-come attendance within the group, still allowing for the raid to go ahead if some are unavailable.  Further, as more people move up, the possibility for more raid groups opens up.


I guess the gist of me point is that both dedicated groups are needed to further push the players.  Yet, free-for-all groups are needed (perhaps with a preference to more casual and new-to-content) in order to facilitate people moving into dedicated groups and catering for varying play styles.

[Ademaro]

I hate to say this as well but I agree with strod and sared on this topic. There has been plenty of room (at least in the last 6 weeks) for people to join in on group two's raid group. We have been ready to push NM content for at least 3 weeks and combining the groups could potentially hurt our chances at pushing NM content for a few more weeks if not until after 1.2 hits..

Additionally people don't understand the benefits of having set groups for PvP, the lack of maturity and all the QQ about favoritism is getting old. If you want to be apart of a group APPLY to that group or make sure your schedule FITS to that group. It is not one bit about picking someone else over you, this is not basketball during recess in 2nd grade.

Secondly, people, we have to understand how important cohesion will be. If we do push for random ppl to fill slots during our ranked pvp slotted hours and its a random group of 8 with 4-5 whom are constantly grouped together there is a lack of trust on the other 3. I have raided and PvP'd for quite some time and you want to be able to trust the guy next to you to do a job and do it well... I am not saying anyone is sub standard in the guild however I am trying to point out that the people that aren't typically grouped for that ranked warzone time may or may not be up to speed on what the others might be trying to communicate. Working together as a team will eventually overcome all of these issues, I know we have the capability of being top PvP republic guild on this server regardless if we are losing dedicated members e.g. requiem and rezinar in the past two weeks as examples.

I am interested to see what the outcome may be but my true stand point is if you want to bitch and complain put that energy towards doing something more productive... If your not making it into a group because of your times find a group that works for your times that you can slot to play and be there day in and day out for them.

[Tbone]

This post will probably contradict itself...

I believe things were good as they were.  Perhaps requiring a minor tweak or addition.
We need dedicated teams for both PvP and Raids.  While not a big PvPer I would glean the same reasons for dedicated teams in that, as in Raids.  A team that practices together and works together will perform far better than those that are thrown together each week.

Being in Raid 3, and yet unable to do a HM, I believe I am speaking for several when I say we would love to move on from Normal mode and start getting stuck into HM.  I can see the reasons we haven't hit HM, while Groups 1 and 2 have.  We're always hitting a roster issue.  While the specifics of the issue do not blame anyone, or cast anyone in a bad light, I shall leave those issues for discussion with members of the raid.

I think what the schedule lacks is any meaningful pathway for new people to come into the dedicated groups and participate.  Again, speaking in Raid specifics, if all the raid groups were doing were HM or Nightmare, we would leave the Normal Mode free.  Such modes would be free for those up and comers to join in with a few experienced (lets say a 50/50 split) and get to grips with the mechanics, gear and group aspects.  As these people gear up through the open-to-all HM Flashpoints and Normal mode raids, they could join a dedicated raid group.  

That pathway means your assured these people have experience in the raid, along with the gear.  A few extras in the raid groups could allow for first-come attendance within the group, still allowing for the raid to go ahead if some are unavailable.  Further, as more people move up, the possibility for more raid groups opens up.


I guess the gist of me point is that both dedicated groups are needed to further push the players.  Yet, free-for-all groups are needed (perhaps with a preference to more casual and new-to-content) in order to facilitate people moving into dedicated groups and catering for varying play styles.

This has always been the case. Raid group #2 has been doing normal AND hard modes of both raids for weeks now and have been asking for ANYONE to join us as we are always short on members. I also said that if anyone wants to take my place for HM raids, I'm already geared and willing to let them take my spot.

I feel that this issue isn't about not providing the opportunity. I believe the issue is people not TAKING ADVANTAGE of the opportunity. The new schedule is actually aimed at accommodating less people overall since we can't seem to find 24 consistent people to raid each week (3 groups) but allowing more interaction between members by raising it to a 16 man instead of 8. If 16 isn't met, than it can be run as an 8 man as a fallback so that a raid is never just canceled.

[Fuse]

I like the idea of a new schedule - I'm a PvP guy, so no shocker there, right? I think with ranked WZs it needed to be on there. For instance, I know there was some concern with timing the WZ practices and only having Monday as a viable option. I'm a fan of letting groups naturally form based on class, experience, gear, and ultimately success - so I do see semi-set groups forming, but based on how members play together. I think that's a simplified way of saying what I was suggesting in the other thread. I also think until we can have 8-man practices, nothing will get set in stone.
I appreciate the chance to have the dialoge, T. I echo NoCrys comment about having everyone offer their input, especially newer members.

[JazzyC]

This has always been the case. Raid group #2 has been doing normal AND hard modes of both raids for weeks now and have been asking for ANYONE to join us as we are always short on members. I also said that if anyone wants to take my place for HM raids, I'm already geared and willing to let them take my spot.

I feel that this issue isn't about not providing the opportunity. I believe the issue is people not TAKING ADVANTAGE of the opportunity. The new schedule is actually aimed at accommodating less people overall since we can't seem to find 24 consistent people to raid each week (3 groups) but allowing more interaction between members by raising it to a 16 man instead of 8. If 16 isn't met, than it can be run as an 8 man as a fallback so that a raid is never just canceled.

Well, I can't comment on what goes on with Raid Group 2 (or indeed 1).  Because 99% of the time, I'm in bed then.  In Raid Group 3 I've seen many people jump into a Normal mode (or indeed our rare HM attempts) that were not in our raid group.  Just looking at our roster when we first started http://thefuriousangels.com/index.php?topic=7529 we had 10 people.  I think we've had at least 3 more join our group on a more permanent basis, and probably the same amount again drop in when we put a shout out.  I would say we managed to pull in 16 on Sunday, but understand that some of those came from another Raid group who didn't run earlier in the week.

With that in mind, could it perhaps be the timings that are the issue.  I realise you'll never cater to all, and a certain timezone has to take precedence, but surely the issue cannot solely be people are not interested.

[Anamodiel]

I don't think that there has been a single week in the last six weeks where I have participated in a Raid where we have not had to explain the mechanics to someone new in our group (or in group 3 when I've subbed for them), whether it be in a Normal or Hardmode. Each night we have been crying for raid members, so much so that we had to cancel last week. Mharz also lost two people from his raid group (maybe three now?), so it isn't just the late night crew that has space. Your group is not the only group immune to these problems. We're all facing these scheduling conflicts and lack of participation, and that's why Tbone initially made this post.

I love having new people in my Raid group, whether its normal mode or hard mode. Why? In the short run, yes, it sets us back a week because we aren't going to be able to attempt some of the harder stuff, but I'd love for that person to eventually become a permanent member. If that person became a permanent member, my hearts and stars I would have a near explosion of happiness (and that's saying something, considering I'm a ball of happiness in general).

All three sets of Raid groups run normal mode. There's no excuse for someone to think that they can't do something. I would understand if someone felt a little excluded because both rosters have 8 permanent members who show up each and every week, but that's not the case.

I would also like to take a moment to post something else. This is not directed at you, Kaplin, or any other specific person. Rather, I'm posting this because I've been sitting on this for a while, and now that talk of cliques (a word I use begrudgingly) has come up, I'd like to say a few words.

The Furious Angels, in most things it does, is a competitive, hardcore group. It's what we describe ourselves as, and it's the image we'd like to project. If you feel like you are being excluded, overlooked, forsaken, underappreciated, or any other sort of adjective that describes you not feeling a part of the group, I challenge you to three things:

1) Come on Teamspeak. I can't tell you how mad it makes me when I see someone in-game and not on Teamspeak. One of the interview questions we ask you is, "Are you able to use Teamspeak on a regular basis while playing SWTOR?" Not one person I have heard interviewed or interviewed has said, "No, I don't like using Teamspeak. I prefer to just use guild chat." The quickest way to get to know someone is to talk with them in Teamspeak. You're not going to get to the same level of comfort with someone if you only ever use text with them. A lot of stuff also happens in Teamspeak that you won't see in the guild chat. "Hey, channel of 9 people, who wants to do a 4-person flashpoint?" "Me!" "Me!" "Me!". You've got your four. Now, person x who rarely uses Teamspeak comes along and sees these 4 people in a Flashpoint. *Why wasn't I included in that?* IT'S BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T ON TEAMSPEAK YOU SILLY NUB.

2) If you see a group in a Channel that is not a Flashpoint/Raid/Command Room channel, GO AND TALK WITH THEM. Don't sit by your lonesome in a channel and expect people to come up and talk with you. Sure, someone might randomly come into your channel, but chances are people are going to go to one of the more populated TS channels. People like to be surrounded by people in hopes of a conversation. That's why you'll see most people sitting in PVP2. It's not because all of those people are PVPing, but rather because they want to socialize. If you actually get a group of 4/3/2 that wants to PVP, they'll go into a different channel or ask everyone to move. I want to talk with everyone, but if I see you sitting in a channel by yourself, I'm going to assume that you want to be left alone. (Weirdo ) If you're listening to story while leveling up, bind one of your random keys to Mute your Headphones so you can mute Teamspeak while story is playing, and then resume listening to Teamspeak once the story is done. If you don't know how to do this, find me in Teamspeak and I'd be very glad to show you. It's easy. I think Broin might have even figured it out.

3) If you see a "clique" group who always hang out with each other in Teamspeak and they're not in the Command Room/FULL Flashpoint Room/FULL Raiding Room, insert yourself in there and talk with them. Chances are, they're really nice caring folk just like the rest of the Angels and love talking with anyone and everyone. Everyone in the Furious Angels was voted in for a reason. We don't let in (many) retards (I'm referring to myself on this one ), so chances are you'll get along with 95% of the guild unless you're a sourpuss like Oscar the Grouch.

If after all of this and you still feel forlorn, forsaken, forgotten, left behind, sad, frustrated, depressed, inferior, COME AND FIND ME IN TEAMSPEAK. Seriously. I really mean it. I love talking with people. I really, really do. Tbone and Broin can attest to that; I'm one of the most talkative people on Teamspeak, and could go on and on for hours about any given subject if you get me going/drunk. But, none of that will happen if you don't put in some effort. The Furious Angels is here to provide you with the means to do anything you want and accomplish every dream you could possibly imagine, but none of that will come to fruition if you DON'T TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE OPPORTUNITIES WE PRESENT YOU.

If you have any questions/comments/thoughts/alcohol, I'll be at the meeting tonight.

[Tbone]

With that in mind, could it perhaps be the timings that are the issue.  I realise you'll never cater to all, and a certain timezone has to take precedence, but surely the issue cannot solely be people are not interested.

With Raid 2, it's that people cannot stay up late enough to complete it. For Raid 1, it's that people are either at work or waiting for Raid 1. Basically having two raids on the same night reduces your chances of getting everyone together, which is why I'm proposing one larger raid a night that could either be 16 or 8 man.

[Tbone]

The Furious Angels, in most things it does, is a competitive, hardcore group. It's what we describe ourselves as, and it's the image we'd like to project. If you feel like you are being excluded, overlooked, forsaken, underappreciated, or any other sort of adjective that describes you not feeling a part of the group, I challenge you to three things:

1) Come on Teamspeak. I can't tell you how mad it makes me when I see someone in-game and not on Teamspeak. One of the interview questions we ask you is, "Are you able to use Teamspeak on a regular basis while playing SWTOR?" Not one person I have heard interviewed or interviewed has said, "No, I don't like using Teamspeak. I prefer to just use guild chat." The quickest way to get to know someone is to talk with them in Teamspeak. You're not going to get to the same level of comfort with someone if you only ever use text with them. A lot of stuff also happens in Teamspeak that you won't see in the guild chat. "Hey, channel of 9 people, who wants to do a 4-person flashpoint?" "Me!" "Me!" "Me!". You've got your four. Now, person x who rarely uses Teamspeak comes along and sees these 4 people in a Flashpoint. *Why wasn't I included in that?* IT'S BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T ON TEAMSPEAK YOU SILLY NUB.

2) If you see a group in a Channel that is not a Flashpoint/Raid/Command Room channel, GO AND TALK WITH THEM. Don't sit by your lonesome in a channel and expect people to come up and talk with you. Sure, someone might randomly come into your channel, but chances are people are going to go to one of the more populated TS channels. People like to be surrounded by people in hopes of a conversation. That's why you'll see most people sitting in PVP2. It's not because all of those people are PVPing, but rather because they want to socialize. If you actually get a group of 4/3/2 that wants to PVP, they'll go into a different channel or ask everyone to move. I want to talk with everyone, but if I see you sitting in a channel by yourself, I'm going to assume that you want to be left alone. (Weirdo ) If you're listening to story while leveling up, bind one of your random keys to Mute your Headphones so you can mute Teamspeak while story is playing, and then resume listening to Teamspeak once the story is done. If you don't know how to do this, find me in Teamspeak and I'd be very glad to show you. It's easy. I think Broin might have even figured it out.

3) If you see a "clique" group who always hang out with each other in Teamspeak and they're not in the Command Room/FULL Flashpoint Room/FULL Raiding Room, insert yourself in there and talk with them. Chances are, they're really nice caring folk just like the rest of the Angels and love talking with anyone and everyone. Everyone in the Furious Angels was voted in for a reason. We don't let in (many) retards (I'm referring to myself on this one ), so chances are you'll get along with 95% of the guild unless you're a sourpuss like Oscar the Grouch.

If after all of this and you still feel forlorn, forsaken, forgotten, left behind, sad, frustrated, depressed, inferior, COME AND FIND ME IN TEAMSPEAK. Seriously. I really mean it. I love talking with people. I really, really do. Tbone and Broin can attest to that; I'm one of the most talkative people on Teamspeak, and could go on and on for hours about any given subject if you get me going/drunk. But, none of that will happen if you don't put in some effort. The Furious Angels is here to provide you with the means to do anything you want and accomplish every dream you could possibly imagine, but none of that will come to fruition if you DON'T TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE OPPORTUNITIES WE PRESENT YOU.

If you have any questions/comments/thoughts/alcohol, I'll be at the meeting tonight.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH

[Ghisteslwchlohm]

1) Come on Teamspeak. I can't tell you how mad it makes me when I see someone in-game and not on Teamspeak. One of the interview questions we ask you is, "Are you able to use Teamspeak on a regular basis while playing SWTOR?" Not one person I have heard interviewed or interviewed has said, "No, I don't like using Teamspeak. I prefer to just use guild chat." The quickest way to get to know someone is to talk with them in Teamspeak. You're not going to get to the same level of comfort with someone if you only ever use text with them. A lot of stuff also happens in Teamspeak that you won't see in the guild chat. "Hey, channel of 9 people, who wants to do a 4-person flashpoint?" "Me!" "Me!" "Me!". You've got your four. Now, person x who rarely uses Teamspeak comes along and sees these 4 people in a Flashpoint. *Why wasn't I included in that?* IT'S BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T ON TEAMSPEAK YOU SILLY NUB.

2) If you see a group in a Channel that is not a Flashpoint/Raid/Command Room channel, GO AND TALK WITH THEM. Don't sit by your lonesome in a channel and expect people to come up and talk with you. Sure, someone might randomly come into your channel, but chances are people are going to go to one of the more populated TS channels. People like to be surrounded by people in hopes of a conversation. That's why you'll see most people sitting in PVP2. It's not because all of those people are PVPing, but rather because they want to socialize. If you actually get a group of 4/3/2 that wants to PVP, they'll go into a different channel or ask everyone to move. I want to talk with everyone, but if I see you sitting in a channel by yourself, I'm going to assume that you want to be left alone. (Weirdo ) If you're listening to story while leveling up, bind one of your random keys to Mute your Headphones so you can mute Teamspeak while story is playing, and then resume listening to Teamspeak once the story is done. If you don't know how to do this, find me in Teamspeak and I'd be very glad to show you. It's easy. I think Broin might have even figured it out.

3) If you see a "clique" group who always hang out with each other in Teamspeak and they're not in the Command Room/FULL Flashpoint Room/FULL Raiding Room, insert yourself in there and talk with them. Chances are, they're really nice caring folk just like the rest of the Angels and love talking with anyone and everyone. Everyone in the Furious Angels was voted in for a reason. We don't let in (many) retards (I'm referring to myself on this one ), so chances are you'll get along with 95% of the guild unless you're a sourpuss like Oscar the Grouch.

If after all of this and you still feel forlorn, forsaken, forgotten, left behind, sad, frustrated, depressed, inferior, COME AND FIND ME IN TEAMSPEAK. Seriously. I really mean it. I love talking with people. I really, really do. Tbone and Broin can attest to that; I'm one of the most talkative people on Teamspeak, and could go on and on for hours about any given subject if you get me going/drunk. But, none of that will happen if you don't put in some effort. The Furious Angels is here to provide you with the means to do anything you want and accomplish every dream you could possibly imagine, but none of that will come to fruition if you DON'T TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE OPPORTUNITIES WE PRESENT YOU.

If you have any questions/comments/thoughts/alcohol, I'll be at the meeting tonight.

I feel like this should get its own thread, and be mandatory reading for newcomers.