The Furious Angels
FA Discussion => Non-VR Games => Topic started by: Venlar on March 29, 2011, 01:51:32 pm
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So I've been thinking about this recently. It seems pretty apparent that SWTOR is going to have a much heavier raiding element than MXO. Now I think it would be prudent that we start working on a system for distribution of loot from these raids. It was a little bit easier for us to manage in MXO cause we'd just camp whatever boss would drop the uber leet gears. lol However I have a feeling if SWTOR is going to model raiding after other MMOs we will see certain dungeons with a lock out of up to a week. Now I brought this up last night in TS and got some good suggestion and I've also been doing some research online about various systems. I'll list this stuff here for you guys to look over, comment on and make your own suggestions.
DKP(Dragon Kill Points) - This is by far the most common method I've found. Basically you set up a system where the more raids you participate in the more points you accumulate. Then you are free to spend said points on various loot that was picked up during the raid.
Pros- Very easy to set up. Likely we will see a form of this on the SWTOR guild site in the future. Fair system in terms of earning what you get.
Cons- Can cause drama. Hording points becomes an issue. Can lead to having 1 uber dude with all the best equipment and 6 other mediocre. Only the most active members would have a real shot at loot and those who can only raid once in a while may be left in the dust.
Additional Notes- It has been mentioned that we could add a decay system to points to prevent hording.
Loot Council - This is a system where in a group of officers of the guild would form a council to vote on and decide who gets what loot. Most commonly they are decided either by making an argument to the council or random rolls between 1-100.
Pros- Extremely easy to set up. No extra web design or programming.
Cons- Drama can come of decisions by the council that may be seen as unfair or playing favorites.
Suicide Kings - This system is set up as a list of members ranked according to attendance. The higher they are on the list the more priority they have on a piece of loot that drops. Once they take a piece of loot they are "suicided" and moved back to the bottom of the list.
Pros- A fair system for those who attend a lot of raids, easy to set up.
Cons- Again faced with the problem of having those who can't make every raid left behind those who can attend a lot.
EPGP(Effort Points/Gear Points - The way this system is set up is you earn effort points for attending raids. Now every time you gain a new item from these raids it raises your gear points. Now you take your EP and divide it by your GP and that gives you your priority on the list. Now there is also a 10% weekly decay on EP and GP which gives others a chance to get items but does not reduce your PR.
Pros- Very fair system, everyone is on equal ground and has a chance to get the items they want. No one person can pull ahead of the group.
Cons- May be a pain to design and program.
FA "Socialistic" Distribution System- So it was brought up last night that perhaps we could look into making a system that distributes loot based entirely on need. It would have to take into account everyone's stats and be able to list priority based entirely on what their gear or stats are.
Pros- Would work well for the greater good of the guild. IE everyone is has some decent gear rather than a handful having all the best.
Cons- May be difficult to set up and to keep track of member stats accurately.
Side note- We risk cold war with capitalist imperialist pig dogs... =p
So those seem to be the top loot systems out there right now. Please if you can list off any more feel free to do so. Also if you have anything to add your input is always wanted.
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Problem is... that if they make it like that... they pretty much took it from wow and especially from aion where dungeons lock you out for alot of hours ( the best dungeon kept you out for 2 days ), now the real problem is that... they probably took the bind on pick up system of Aion.. if thats the case then its pretty much whoever needs in the raid group, gets to pick up...
However we can take one of these systems for those Bind-on Equip (unlike Bind-on Pick up i just spoke) items that drops... take in mind Bind-on Pick up are better than Bind-on Equip.
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Problem is... that if they make it like that... they pretty much took it from wow and especially from aion where dungeons lock you out for alot of hours ( the best dungeon kept you out for 2 days ), now the real problem is that... they probably took the bind on pick up system of Aion.. if that's the case then its pretty much whoever needs in the raid group, gets to pick up...
However we can take one of these systems for those Bind-on Equip (unlike Bind-on Pick up I just spoke) items that drops... take in mind Bind-on Pick up are better than Bind-on Equip.
If that is the case then whatever system we choose I think it should still be possible to look up the priority or have someone spend points during the raid and have that person be the one actually picking up the item. Might be a little more time consuming and a pain to tab out to the system itself but it is in the interest of fairness and preventing unnecessary drama.
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Playing WoW for as long as I did, the DKP system was utilized often by high end guilds, but really it wasn't all that necessary in casual raiding. casually you just needed on the item if it was your class/spec and if no one fit that category then class/offspec. if none of that than the item was disenchanted and the mats put in the guild bank or rolled on by the whole community.
this way when a class item drops all the members of the class get to roll on the loot item and the dice roll makes the final call. I never really had an issue with this system causing any drama, unlike other systems where that guy that saved up DKP forever is suddenly buying everything. (something my old roommate was notorious for)
Loot councils take too long when your mid raid. BOP items have to be picked up on the spot.
Loot distribution shouldnt be such a worry honestly. with this group players should be considering what is best for the guild overall and we would all get what we need to help the guild succeed accordingly.
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Also I know in WoW and other games BoP items can be traded to members of the group for a couple of hours before being actually bound to the player. Not sure about Aion though. Pretty sure the same was true in EQ2.
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Playing WoW for as long as I did, the DKP system was utilized often by high end guilds, but really it wasn't all that necessary in casual raiding. casually you just needed on the item if it was your class/spec and if no one fit that category then class/offspec. if none of that than the item was disenchanted and the mats put in the guild bank or rolled on by the whole community.
this way when a class item drops all the members of the class get to roll on the loot item and the dice roll makes the final call. I never really had an issue with this system causing any drama, unlike other systems where that guy that saved up DKP forever is suddenly buying everything. (something my old roommate was notorious for)
Loot councils take too long when your mid raid. BOP items have to be picked up on the spot.
Loot distribution shouldnt be such a worry honestly. with this group players should be considering what is best for the guild overall and we would all get what we need to help the guild succeed accordingly.
My concern is mainly this game will have 20-30 man raids. In those type of raids you almost have about 5-6 different people wanting the same item. Dice rolls are all well and good but I've seen it lead to problems before... IE someone on a lucky streak.
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Personally I'm in favor of either the EPGP system or coming up with our own system. I want to ensure that everyone in the guild is getting good equipment rather than a few people being pimped out. I think it will lead to us being an overall stronger guild. Also as our numbers increase we are going to gain more people that are into raiding. With the amount of people we have been interviewing and accepting into the guild I could see us having a very strong raiding team possibly even two or three if our numbers get high enough. Also we are a PvP oriented guild so we are going to want the best advantage over our enemies. I hate to say cause I know people are hoping this game will be more skill based but at the end of the day it's still an RPG. RPGs are and always will be based on stats and numbers.
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I'm definitely down for our own socialist system =D
I remember a certain someone getting items in Darkfall and then constantly trying to trade or get something out of an item that he normally wouldn't even use. If this type of thing ever happens within the FA i assure you that it'll be taken care of quickly. I like the idea of working together to better the guild as a whole. Personally, i have no problem giving up an item i could use for someone else that is less decked out.
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I'm definitely down for our own socialist system =D
I remember a certain someone getting items in Darkfall and then constantly trying to trade or get something out of an item that he normally wouldn't even use. If this type of thing ever happens within the FA I assure you that it'll be taken care of quickly. I like the idea of working together to better the guild as a whole. Personally, I have no problem giving up an item I could use for someone else that is less decked out.
Thanks arch that's a really good example of the kind of situations I'm trying to avoid. Greed can drive a group of people apart faster than you can say the word. Any kind of problem coming from unfair looting or being greedy will inevitably lead to drama. Like Broin said last night. We don't do drama.
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I can almost guarantee you the people that reallllllly want the gear will find a way to get the gear.. I know in the guild I am in for WoW we have a weekly raid system and generally do just loot rolls, however if its a really good item we have to show that it is a good increase from the item we have.. if it is a minor upgrade or a like for like then we don't roll if someone else needs it more.. However, if it is between three people that all equally (for the most part) could use the upgrade then its a fair roll between them.. Very rarely does this cause any problems..
As for loot council, well... that seems like an idea just begging for someone to start complaining about favoritism (even if you can prove it is not in any way that) and cause a whole bunch of drama.
Im down for the socialist system.. or just a clean rolling system based on NEED...
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Well this is a pretty good subject to talk about, we gotta get ready before the game comes out. Organization will make us excel above all others.
I gotta say thou.. that im not that worried... if there are instanced dungeon that can be done with a group then groups will consist of 1 class of each type... therefore people will just roll for whatever his class can use... Im planning to go for PvP gear over PvE gear... and for that reason im gonna find myself pvping alot more than pveing... i've had my good share of pve with Aion, which btw... you cant trade BOP items after you pick them up :S dunno if, in wow, there was a grace time or minutes/hour that u could still trade em, but in Aion if you picked something up by mistake you were flagged as a ninja and that pretty much screwed your chances at getting party invites.
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This topic has the potential to go south very quickly as we are talking about highly drama oriented materials, so let's keep in mind that it's just pixels and I personally would rather have just with just straight rolls.
However, I've been apart of "WoW" since launch and seeing a lot of drama and having to deal with a lot of it myself as I've always been an officer or a GM a loot system is the best way to deal with situations like this.
I will admit I'm very biased towards EPGP because it's a very fair system that bases your numbers off on how you perform. I don't mean numbers wise or knowledge of fights but, being on time for start time, being ready to raid, attendance etc. The real beauty of this is we can use it any way we want to, customize it to fit our needs. Typically one person runs the show and is called the LootMaster generally someone you trust such as an officer or even the GM/Co-GM.
At the end of the day, in Matrix this is something I was glad we did not have to deal with and I'm still hoping we don't somehow end up with the type of people in our home to where we would need to reinforce an extra pair of rules to keep everyone happy and fair without drama. I'm sure we have all baby sit for a friend before, but I really don't want to be doing it while I'm out with my friends if you catch my vibe.
I have a lot more to say on this matter as I'm a Lootmaster and I'm very experienced with EPGP, however I want to see where the topic goes before I say more.
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I raid alot in lotro and act as raid leader from time to time my raid alliance employ a bonus loot roll scheme where by every successful boss kill gives each person involved a +10 to there accumulative roll which they can use on desirable loot the rolls can go up to a maximum of 300. Everyone starts on 100 and if you win a loot roll your total is reset back to 100. Using the roll system adds a element of randomness so even people who cant raid as often have a fair chance of winning a roll therefore removing any drama.
Also Im a min maxer myself so know exactly what i want to roll on before it even drops. This way I do not roll on items that may benefit other people more than me. It's one of my pet peeves where we get people rolling on stuff that isn't even an upgrade to what they have there by doing some one else out of a beneficial item.
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My only concern with a rolling system is I have seen really messed up rolls in the past. There is one instance that stands out in my mind where one guy won 5 rolls during a raid in EQ2... it pretty much left jack for the rest of the players on that particular raid. It just ended up feeling like we did all that for nothing at all and this guy just won the lottery. Not a good way to keep a group together if you ask me. I know it's extremely rare and unlikely but it can happen. I also don't want to see people rolling for items they don't need or need as much as other players.
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I raid alot in lotro and act as raid leader from time to time my raid alliance employ a bonus loot roll scheme where by every successful boss kill gives each person involved a +10 to there accumulative roll which they can use on desirable loot the rolls can go up to a maximum of 300. Everyone starts on 100 and if you win a loot roll your total is reset back to 100. Using the roll system adds a element of randomness so even people who can't raid as often have a fair chance of winning a roll therefore removing any drama.
Also I'm a min maxer myself so know exactly what I want to roll on before it even drops. This way I do not roll on items that may benefit other people more than me. It's one of my pet peeves where we get people rolling on stuff that isn't even an upgrade to what they have there by doing some one else out of a beneficial item.
I run a very similar mechanic for when we do Drake runs like in ICC or even older content, but only for older content because in current content, the people who are consistent in showing up should have the go at loot.
I'm 100% against someone coming in their first time and grabbing an item that perhaps our main healer has been looking to upgrade for weeks finally drops. I mean sure, the odds are low but it's something that shouldn't be left to such chance, because that can cause a lot more drama than other loot issue I've seen it myself lol.
My only concern with a rolling system is I have seen really messed up rolls in the past. There is one instance that stands out in my mind where one guy won 5 rolls during a raid in EQ2... it pretty much left jack for the rest of the players on that particular raid. It just ended up feeling like we did all that for nothing at all and this guy just won the lottery. Not a good way to keep a group together if you ask me. I know it's extremely rare and unlikely but it can happen. I also don't want to see people rolling for items they don't need or need as much as other players.
Well, obviously it would only work in a perfect world where caution and fair was 1st nature to everyone. It was more of a statement than a real "what we should do". I get your drift, I've had it happen too.
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This topic has the potential to go south very quickly as we are talking about highly drama oriented materials, so let's keep in mind that it's just pixels and I personally would rather have just with just straight rolls.
However, I've been apart of "WoW" since launch and seeing a lot of drama and having to deal with a lot of it myself as I've always been an officer or a GM a loot system is the best way to deal with situations like this.
I will admit I'm very biased towards EPGP because it's a very fair system that bases your numbers off on how you perform. I don't mean numbers wise or knowledge of fights but, being on time for start time, being ready to raid, attendance etc. The real beauty of this is we can use it any way we want to, customize it to fit our needs. Typically one person runs the show and is called the LootMaster generally someone you trust such as an officer or even the GM/Co-GM.
At the end of the day, in Matrix this is something I was glad we did not have to deal with and I'm still hoping we don't somehow end up with the type of people in our home to where we would need to reinforce an extra pair of rules to keep everyone happy and fair without drama. I'm sure we have all baby sit for a friend before, but I really don't want to be doing it while I'm out with my friends if you catch my vibe.
I have a lot more to say on this matter as I'm a Lootmaster and I'm very experienced with EPGP, however I want to see where the topic goes before I say more.
I'd love to hear your experience with the EPGP system. I'm only somewhat versed in DKP from past guild experience and only have a basic understanding of the system. I'm really hoping to get more input from everyone in the guild on what their opinions are of some of the systems I listed earlier and I think the more informed we are about them then we can make the best choice to suit FA.
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Found a pretty good article about EPGP on WoWWiki
http://www.wowwiki.com/EPGP
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this has always been my least favorite thing about raiding. i have seen so much drama it makes my head hurt. the thing with WoW that I hated was the pieces to turn in for tier gear, which was always for like 2 or 3 classes. loot that is class specific is so much easier to deal with. as far as systems, the problems were always for casual players who didn't accrue dkp or whatever points and never got much.
one thing that was a good alternative in WoW was badge gear, and it was tier comparable by the end of burning crusade.
anyway, the majority of loot drama was player-driven, and since we are so awesome, i hope that we don't see anything like that happen :)
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We never used a system for MxO, but it wasn't much of a raiding game. I'm interested in what people think would work for us...
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Does anyone really know how the system is supposed to work for big-team drops? I could have sworn I heard someone at PAX saying that when running things like flashpoints you get Tokens or Badges or something, which can be redeemed for stuff at the end of the mission? Something like that.
Has anyone dug through the Dev notes to see what we have to work with? Pertaining to loot and all, I tend to zone out and focus on the shiny things happening, so maybe we could post up some notes or liveblog links about it.
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Does anyone really know how the system is supposed to work for big-team drops? I could have sworn I heard someone at PAX saying that when running things like flashpoints you get Tokens or Badges or something, which can be redeemed for stuff at the end of the mission? Something like that.
Has anyone dug through the Dev notes to see what we have to work with? Pertaining to loot and all, I tend to zone out and focus on the shiny things happening, so maybe we could post up some notes or liveblog links about it.
Telos Commendations dropped off of the 1st mini boss as well as the last boss of the flashpoint from PAX which if used anything like wow which once you gain a certain amount of them will be able to trade in for tasty loots.
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As Venlar and TheSorrows have said... I hate when someone comes in and take something that I, or someone, has been looking for and raided alot to get... thats the thing with luck... In Aion i only raided with guildies so i dint mind... i just hoped they kept raiding to help us get through the dungeon easier, and since they already had the item, they wouldnt roll again.
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Hey all. I figured this would be a place I could provide some useful input from past experience.
All the raiding I've ever done used a loot council distribution system. While I'll give the nod in agreement to an earlier post about pros and cons about loot council what I think makes this system shine is that the loot council (normally officers) make decisions on where powerful items are best put to use.
Loot council decisions can be based on:
1. Attendance. Show up, work hard get rewarded.
2. Performance. Pull off a battlefield heroic feat, save the day and get rewarded.
3. Guild citizenship. Helping the people around you and guildies to prep for raids deserves consideration as well.
4. Size of the upgrade. Who needs the item more? Who will make the biggest impact to the group's performance with an upgrade?
5. Leading people to a role. Need an off tank? A backup healer? Point the gear in the right direction to make that happen faster.
Just some ideas from my experience. What this does require however is that we all keep the right attitude. There is no "I" in team and a stronger team is better for everyone. And of course faith in leadership to make good choices.
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We really should make a list of things we want the system to accomplish.
Something that the Angels have always been focused on is PvP, and we fight as a team not as individuals. Thinking through that it seems like we would always want our stats to be the best they can for group PvP battles. (Our other aspect RP, gear only matters in visuals not so much in stats, hopefully TOR will allow styles vs gear and we won't have to worry about farming dress whites as much.) I would say some part of the system would account for that.
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My concern is mainly this game will have 20-30 man raids. In those type of raids you almost have about 5-6 different people wanting the same item. Dice rolls are all well and good but I've seen it lead to problems before... IE someone on a lucky streak.
Well I believe a dev was quoted a while back that they wouldn't go over 20, which we learned in wow over 25 was too much. (even at 25 you could carry 1 or 2 people)
but you are right when you have multiple classes going for the same item it can get tense. I never really had the problem because I never let loot be a drama issue to begin with. it was all about the fun of the raid for me, so crying over loot was useless IMO.
But an additional rule could be that once someone rolls on an important piece. (you really are only gonna get one roll here, but stranger things have happened once in a while) they only get that one roll.
Kara is an example where if you can clear in one night, your running 10 bosses, giving everyone a chance to roll on something in theory. (10 man raid)
but this guild is getting pretty large in size. I think the EPGP will work better.
Maybe some tweaks here and there, but the system rewards guild effort and neccessity to perform for the guild better.
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It sounds like the Council system would work best for us, distributing items as the officers see fit (can even be RPed as items of great power being entrusted to members) so that we kick the most arse in PvP. If we were a hardcore raiding guild, I'd be a little more iffy on that system, what with the potential for drama. But I think it's safe to say that the primary goal of most of the members is not phat lewt, but being respected as a cohesive, hard-to-defeat bunch in PvP. Phat lewt helps with that, but is not the end goal in itself.
Then again, I'm not much for raiding, and am really hoping that Bioware makes good on its promise of endgame equipment being available through crafting.
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It sounds like the Council system would work best for us, distributing items as the officers see fit (can even be RPed as items of great power being entrusted to members) so that we kick the most arse in PvP. If we were a hardcore raiding guild, I'd be a little more iffy on that system, what with the potential for drama. But I think it's safe to say that the primary goal of most of the members is not phat lewt, but being respected as a cohesive, hard-to-defeat bunch in PvP. Phat lewt helps with that, but is not the end goal in itself.
Then again, I'm not much for raiding, and am really hoping that Bioware makes good on its promise of endgame equipment being available through crafting.
well pvp gear and raiding gear will be separate entities from the understanding ive gotten from most of the interviews reguarding it. most likely pvp gear having more stamina and defensive stats. I dont think it would be in our best interests to Raid pve for PVP gear when PVP is supposed to have its own gear rewards.
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It sounds like the Council system would work best for us, distributing items as the officers see fit (can even be RPed as items of great power being entrusted to members) so that we kick the most arse in PvP. If we were a hardcore raiding guild, I'd be a little more iffy on that system, what with the potential for drama. But I think it's safe to say that the primary goal of most of the members is not phat lewt, but being respected as a cohesive, hard-to-defeat bunch in PvP. Phat lewt helps with that, but is not the end goal in itself.
Then again, I'm not much for raiding, and am really hoping that Bioware makes good on its promise of endgame equipment being available through crafting.
well pvp gear and raiding gear will be separate entities from the understanding ive gotten from most of the interviews reguarding it. most likely pvp gear having more stamina and defensive stats. I don't think it would be in our best interests to Raid pve for PVP gear when PVP is supposed to have its own gear rewards.
Ideally, that would be the case. I remember back in vanilla WoW the Grand Marshal gear was more than a match for the raiding gear people had. Not sure if that's changed.
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Back in TBC, the guild I was in had a DKP system and I was Raid Leader/ Off Tank. On various ocassions I passed on items for the Main Tank and a pally tank we were gearing up for the Morogrim Tidewalker encounter. I passed on them not just because it benefited the overall guild and our progress, but because I had been a Main Tank and I know know what it's like to MT for hours and leave empty handed. Anyway, after a few weeks all the officers talked to me regarding my points and the fact that, according to them, I was hoarding them. It was not true and since they actually wanted me to bid, I did so when the T5 shoulders dropped in TK, even though the MT needed them more (I had no other choice and they actually cooled off afterwards).
Whether it's Loot Council or DKP you will still have drama. With Loot Council there will be people shouting favoritism and with dkp there will also be people spouting nonsense. Players that are selfish and neglect the benefit of the whole guild, and place themselves first.
In the end, I'll just go along with whatever is decided.
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Ive had bad experiences with EPGP and even DKP systems. My step brother used to run a guild on my old world of Warcraft server where he was the loot master and kept track of the points, whenver a piece of loot dropped it went to the officers or guild msater (himself being an officer) unless they didnt need it, then the rest of the guild got a shot.
Im partial to loot council. So heres my explination of it to throw into the think tank
Loot council is where you get the officers, and gm all together when a boss is downed, players who need the loot put a 1 in chat, or something to make it known they require the item. And the loot council decides based on raid attendance, and who the upgrade would e BIGGER for.
(example, Wrathful is the highest pvp tier at level 80, deadly below that, and hateful below that. If wrathful gloves were to drop, and theyre the only item i need to be full wrathful, even if i never miss a raid or never step in fire, it would go to someone who is in deadly gear, or hateful gear or worse ect. The only acception of this is the very new recruits, who normaly go a few raids to prove dedication before getting any loot to show they arent going to leave over not getting loot, or arent trying to get loot then run. Also a very rare exception in world of warcraft, was DBW [Death Bringers Will] It was the best trinket in slot for melee dps at the time, and normaly went to the better dps who have proven theyre worth and dedication to the guild, becuase it was such a rare item to come across)
@Keeloth - If crafting gear is equal to endgame raid content gear then what is the drive to raid? Because for alot of people organizing a group to go down a boss is harder then spending a week farming materials for a similar item.
And the metagame in wow currently (and alwayse has been) tanky dps, once a certian level of tankyness is acheived its not uncommon to see pve gear for more offensive starts on peoples person so long as they retain a certian level of tankyness, it could possibly be the same in SWTOR.
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@Keeloth - If crafting gear is equal to endgame raid content gear then what is the drive to raid? Because for alot of people organizing a group to go down a boss is harder then spending a week farming materials for a similar item.
And the metagame in wow currently (and alwayse has been) tanky dps, once a certian level of tankyness is acheived its not uncommon to see pve gear for more offensive starts on peoples person so long as they retain a certian level of tankyness, it could possibly be the same in SWTOR.
Well... if they make it that the bosses in raids drops the thing needed to craft the end gear... I think that will cause alot more drama... since you are going to need to kill him a lot of times and hope for the item to drop to gather the thingy...
For example.. you need 10 Rancor Tooth, and it has a 1% drop chance...
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@Keeloth - If crafting gear is equal to endgame raid content gear then what is the drive to raid? Because for alot of people organizing a group to go down a boss is harder then spending a week farming materials for a similar item.
And the metagame in wow currently (and alwayse has been) tanky dps, once a certian level of tankyness is acheived its not uncommon to see pve gear for more offensive starts on peoples person so long as they retain a certian level of tankyness, it could possibly be the same in SWTOR.
Well... if they make it that the bosses in raids drops the thing needed to craft the end gear... I think that will cause alot more drama... since you are going to need to kill him a lot of times and hope for the item to drop to gather the thingy...
For example.. you need 10 Rancor Tooth, and it has a 1% drop chance...
WoW Did that with the plate dps legendary item for killing arthas. Shadowmourne took 50 shards to complete, and you only have like a 10% chance to get a shard if you downed a boss on heroic on the first attempt of the raid or something stupid difficult like that. And there was alot of drama about it. But if the crafting gear is equal to the raid gear, giving an alternative to raiding, why would the items required for it be from a raid, we'll deffinetly have to wait and see about this whole crafting thing, but this is just my opinion lol.
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Ah Shadowmourn... I love that axe. It was a chore to make but my favorite WoW acheezement. Ah well.. to the future!
What I hope we see in SWTOR is that crafting is THE way to make top end gear. So why raid? To get mats and patterns to make that top end gear.
Consider this as my ideal system:
Rare patterns have a super low drop rate in the "world" at large, a little higher drop rate in Flash Points, and a higher still drop rate in raids. Materials follow a similar scheme. What this effectively promotes is a gearing process that has a ramp up. People who push end game raid content get geared faster because they get access to more critical drops more often giving them a temporial lead. The casual players who make the choice not to raid aren't denied items but are instead required to grind a little longer.
This has always seemed really obvious to me as a very fair way to "gear up" in an MMO.
Anyway, back on topic. I think someone mentioned we should determine what we want a loot system to accomplish for us. Once we know that then the obvious choice will present itself.
~M
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@Keeloth - If crafting gear is equal to endgame raid content gear then what is the drive to raid? Because for alot of people organizing a group to go down a boss is harder then spending a week farming materials for a similar item
My guess? The materials required to craft these items come from raids and PvP warzones. So, that means there are three ways of getting top-tier gear:
- Raiding
- PvPing
- Spending a bajillion credits because you require mats gotten only from raiding or PvPing
Or, they could make Raiding gear have special properties that differentiate it frm crafting gear, I don't know what Bioware's strategy here is. I just know that they've said top gear comes from raiding, PvP, and crafting.
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I see a lot of people talking about a loot council system. However, my biggest worry about this is just the human factor in general. Both on and off the council. On one hand you have people off the council who may feel that there is a bias amongst those on the council. Whether this is warranted or not it can spread drama and dissent. On the other hand the council is made up of people and people are fallible. Even if the intention is not there it may still lead to unintentional favoritism IE not having all the facts and giving one person a piece of loot even though another deserves it more. I'd rather remove human error or drama from the equation and go with pure numbers. Numbers don't lie.... unless they are being messed with. However I think so far the EPGP system seems the most apparently fair system there is. This is still not our only option. We can still try to come up with our own. Granted that may be another entirely different topic in its on right and a project on the level if not close to the challenge. It's something I think we still have on the table though and hell we got enough time til release to get something like that done. Just my 2 cents and opinion on the matter.
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I see a lot of people talking about a loot council system. However, my biggest worry about this is just the human factor in general. Both on and off the council. On one hand you have people off the council who may feel that there is a bias amongst those on the council. Whether this is warranted or not it can spread drama and dissent. On the other hand the council is made up of people and people are fallible. Even if the intention is not there it may still lead to unintentional favoritism IE not having all the facts and giving one person a piece of loot even though another deserves it more. I'd rather remove human error or drama from the equation and go with pure numbers. Numbers don't lie.... unless they are being messed with. However I think so far the EPGP system seems the most apparently fair system there is. This is still not our only option. We can still try to come up with our own. Granted that may be another entirely different topic in its on right and a project on the level if not close to the challenge. It's something I think we still have on the table though and hell we got enough time til release to get something like that done. Just my 2 cents and opinion on the matter.
Thats why the loot is decided upon not for who is the most geared and needs it to cap out but who is the LEAST geared, and needs it to stay competitive with the guild on the meters and such ect. The very few exceptions are like END END ENDGAME content, where early bosses drop best in slot items, in which case you would give that to a higher dps or a higher healer if your having trouble progressing through the content. But with that exception all the loot goes to the lesser geared members of the raid, to make our weakest link stronger.
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I see a lot of people talking about a loot council system. However, my biggest worry about this is just the human factor in general. Both on and off the council. On one hand you have people off the council who may feel that there is a bias amongst those on the council. Whether this is warranted or not it can spread drama and dissent. On the other hand the council is made up of people and people are fallible. Even if the intention is not there it may still lead to unintentional favoritism IE not having all the facts and giving one person a piece of loot even though another deserves it more. I'd rather remove human error or drama from the equation and go with pure numbers. Numbers don't lie.... unless they are being messed with. However I think so far the EPGP system seems the most apparently fair system there is. This is still not our only option. We can still try to come up with our own. Granted that may be another entirely different topic in its on right and a project on the level if not close to the challenge. It's something I think we still have on the table though and hell we got enough time til release to get something like that done. Just my 2 cents and opinion on the matter.
that's why the loot is decided upon not for who is the most geared and needs it to cap out but who is the LEAST geared, and needs it to stay competitive with the guild on the meters and such ect. The very few exceptions are like END END ENDGAME content, where early bosses drop best in slot items, in which case you would give that to a higher dps or a higher healer if your having trouble progressing through the content. But with that exception all the loot goes to the lesser geared members of the raid, to make our weakest link stronger.
Just playing devil's advocate here but how does the council decide which of 5 weak leaks who are participating in raids for weeks deserves said loot. Esp when the last few get a few weeks in for trying to get the same item. Just doesn't sit right with me for some reason.
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I see a lot of people talking about a loot council system. However, my biggest worry about this is just the human factor in general. Both on and off the council. On one hand you have people off the council who may feel that there is a bias amongst those on the council. Whether this is warranted or not it can spread drama and dissent. On the other hand the council is made up of people and people are fallible. Even if the intention is not there it may still lead to unintentional favoritism IE not having all the facts and giving one person a piece of loot even though another deserves it more. I'd rather remove human error or drama from the equation and go with pure numbers. Numbers don't lie.... unless they are being messed with. However I think so far the EPGP system seems the most apparently fair system there is. This is still not our only option. We can still try to come up with our own. Granted that may be another entirely different topic in its on right and a project on the level if not close to the challenge. It's something I think we still have on the table though and hell we got enough time til release to get something like that done. Just my 2 cents and opinion on the matter.
that's why the loot is decided upon not for who is the most geared and needs it to cap out but who is the LEAST geared, and needs it to stay competitive with the guild on the meters and such ect. The very few exceptions are like END END ENDGAME content, where early bosses drop best in slot items, in which case you would give that to a higher dps or a higher healer if your having trouble progressing through the content. But with that exception all the loot goes to the lesser geared members of the raid, to make our weakest link stronger.
Just playing devil's advocate here but how does the council decide which of 5 weak leaks who are participating in raids for weeks deserves said loot. Esp when the last few get a few weeks in for trying to get the same item. Just doesn't sit right with me for some reason.
It goes without saying that there are going to be alot of similar items on people when they first start out. But there are people who have alot of time to dedicate to a game who will pick up pvp pieces, or random drop pieces that are good for that content place. Aswell as people who skip some quests that give good items, because they didnt know they gave such items. I really dowbt that 5 people will have the EXACT same item set, and as such it wont be AS Difficult to decide what piece of loot goes where. And if you wanna go so far as to say 5 people have the EXACT same item in that slot, then it would go to whoever has the weakest item set overall, and if you wanna go even FARTHER that they all ahve the exact same items, play the exact same class / advance combo then you have them roll, and there will be no drama with the roll, because once a person gets that upgraded piece of loot, they are no longer in that select group of weak links, and the drama over a lucky roller, or favorites would have no place there.
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Loot council is a bad idea period. I highly suggest you take that particular loot system and simply put it out of your mind.
Loot council is a system that appoints certain individuals with the power to say who gets what. A system such as EPGP governs everyone and not just those who are not on a "council" is the type of fair system we should be looking at.
Also, if people are going to make this entire issue about getting gear and not about keeping things fair even for new members down the road, you may need to readjust your motives.
At the end of the day, a simple and easy to manage system while being fair and just to those involved is the best way for us to go. Loot council is not the way to go.
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Since MxO was my first major MMO experience (I still play EVE casually but usually solo), reading all of this is an eye-opener. I wanted to weigh in, but I have no experience with raiding in other games and raiding systems, so take the following with a grain of salt:
While MxO had little to no focus on raids, there was plenty of high-end gear to farm. Pandora's Boxes, Wasteland Corruptors, Data Mining, and Sati's Toyboxes could all be considered "raids" in MxO. The only difference I can see is that all of these took place in open areas and were not instanced. But they all required various levels of teamwork.
A raid system to me seems to go against our main goal as a group, which is to have fun as a group. Reading through this thread I get the sense that a raid system would cause more drama than it would solve because it seems to create an unnecessary hierarchy. I can understand the need to keep loot distribution fair. But I know we hold ourselves to a pretty high standard, and the honor system always worked really well for us in MxO. I can't think of a single time when anyone in the faction felt cheated out of a drop that they felt entitled to.
It worked like this:
Broin: "Hey guys. I need Item X from this Pandora's Box. Anyone up for it?"
Everyone: "Sure! Let's go!"
Dagonet: "I also need Item X. Would you guys mind sticking around after this and helping me get it?"
Everyone: "No problem!"
*15 minutes later.*
Broin: "Ok. I've got my item. You guys can divvy up the rest."
Adad: "I found Item Y. Anyone need it?"
Anamodiel: "I need Item Y."
ManicVelocity: "I also need Item Y. Go ahead and take it, Ana. I'll get it next time."
Long story short: We just plain helped each other out, we trusted each other to keep it fair, and it worked well for 4+ years.
I guess what I'm wondering is if a raid system is really necessary? Again, I have no real experience with traditional raids, so I have no idea how they work. It's entirely possible that the honor system I'm talking about would be ineffective.
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*15 minutes later.*
This, I think, is probably the key difference. I was not much of a raider in WoW, because those dungeons took HOURS. You could seriously easily spend 4-6 hours slogging through trash mobs, just to fight a boss that has a 5% chance at the item you want. And if I remember right, the dungeons were locked so you could only run then once a week or something, so running the same dungeon again in the same night is just not happening even if people were willing to spend 8-12 hours a sitting doing nothing but raiding.
So, that's why all these loot systems sprung up. The reason I don't see if being as big a deal for us is because if we can get our PvP gear through PvP...then why would we raid? I could see doing it so our members could see the content, but with the guild focus being on PvP and RP, I can't see us really having any reason to raid regularly if we don't need the gear.
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The biggest reasons loot systems become necessary in traditional raids in most MMOs vs MxO is simple manic. Rarity. Certain powerful equipment usually has a very low drop rate in most MMOs. Combine that with a raid lock out and what your talking about from MxO just isn't possible.
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I'm 100% with you Manic I feel as you feel on the matter I really do. If I could make it so the Honor system we used in MxO would be the way we do things I would and to be honest there really isn't a real reason it can't be. However, that chances of it working are even lower than the current chances of getting into SWTOR: Beta. That coupled with the fact and I'm not saying anyone in particular, but we have a lot of new blood and most of which we have never been in this type of situation with before. It's hard to predict how our old ways will work with new people. It's something we are simply going to have to wait for and see once the game launches.
Keeloth your right, we are Heavy RP and PVP based and we will dominate both areas of the game much like we did in MxO, however if it's apart of the game we'll do it. With that being said, we did everything in MxO -- this particular type of "Raid" content was not exactly present in MxO so it's new ground for most of the Angels.
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I despise EPGP and DKP. I have never seen them work and they are terrible terrible ideas in my mind. In all the guilds ive been in through out 3 expansions of wow I only raided with one guild that did EPGP or DKP. My brother ran the points, and he would before the raid, sneak in extra points for himself and his friends, and the guildmaster and officers were in on it and got geared to max before anyone else got anything. Since then soon as i was recruited if they mentioned they used epgp or dkp (and i avoided those who advertised as dkp or epgp) they died by the next expansion because they broke up due to drama. Ive been in top guilds, 2nd server downing of content or one of the guilds to progress through it soon after. Most guilds now in wow including the one im in use /roll because the diversity of the classes and what they need no one really fights over gear in any guilds anymore, yet were downing heroic content that some guilds haven't even seen on normal difficult yet, without one complaint about loot. But im not even a fan of that, Loot council in my opinion is the best system. Because it helps everyone stay on the same gear level, thus keeping the weakest links constantly changing on who needs gear. I completely disagree with you Sorrows.
Edit - Loot council would be run by Tbone and the officers trusted through a multitude of games anyway. The only possible issue with loot council is the same with EPGP and DKP. Which is officer corruption. That is the only possible downfall of any of these systems, and out of them i personally prefer loot council because it spreads gear out evenly to those who need them, theres no stressing over how many points you have, or feeling discouraged and feeling you need to horde points till you have more then everyone else to assure you get a piece you NEED more then all of the others. Not to mention that officers would take note of how often people show up for raid, and they're effort put into them when distributing gear. Someone who NEVER shows up for raid would probably not get anything unless no one else needs it, same as someone who afk's through fights thinking that they will get carried without trying themselves. Loot council is again, IMO the BEST system created.
Example - End of WOTLK. I was my guilds first warrior, i was 3'rd out of the whole guild on damage per second ect. And i trained another warrior for how to do dps and he was 6th on the charts, but still doing well. I had drama arize in real life and missed a few raids. Because of those few missed raids the other warrior was chosen to get shadowmourne over me, i wasn't happy about it, but because i missed the raids i couldnt argue. Even though the officers knew about my drama they were looking out for the good of the guild and started getting the other warrior shadowmourne. (We didnt finish it before cata but the point remains, that EPGP or dkp being that i didnt need an upgrade a good 2 months before shadowmorune, and we raided every week, i could have been gone for a long while and still gotten shadowmourne over the other warrior, thus hurting the guild's chances to down content because i had drama and couldn't show up for a few raids at the time.
edit 2 - If we were running epgp i would have gotten the pieces of shadowmourne, and if the officers said no, there WOULD be drama because i would have had the points for it, and either they caused drama, or hurt the guilds progression chances until my real life drama had finished.
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You seem to be confusing the Furious Angels with a pack and wild dogs that play WoW, trust me when I tell you your perception is way way off.
Corruption will always kill any loot system before it get off the ground, something you do not have to worry about here.
You seem to be against a system that in fact enforces what you want out of one. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I am fully against a Loot Council 100%. However, if your worried about being judged on performance, attendance and overall attitude -- Loot Council is not the only system that governs that. In fact it's probably the only system that says it does, but leaves it open to the council to IGNORE such information and dictate how they see fit.
Where I am confident that would not happen here, Loot Council is not the route we should go and I think others would agree.
EPGP is a system where you earn your points by showing up, doing well, and doing what your supposed to be doing. You then "purchase" your items by bidding your points and whoever has more points which is dictated by who's shown up more, attended more, been on time more, etc wins. You lose the points and move down the list, but that's the beauty the list CONSTANTLY changes and rotates which gives everyone a shot at loot.
Loot Council is a babysitting system where you try to impress those who have POWER over your gear and the POWER of you getting that gear first. It promotes brown nosing, drama, number buffing, and a long list of crap we don't need. Also to be quite honest, the whole Idea behind "Loot Council" just isn't what FA is all about.
For the moment, some are for both it seems. The brass is going to have to step in here sooner or later and a formal debate will have to be had IMO to hammer this out, but I hope those who will be heading the final call here really look at it. I know Venlar and I started this wonderful topic in TS the other night, but it's going to be a cornerstone issue is we choose to enjoy every aspect of the game.
At the end of the day, whatever is chosen I will roll with but I will fight for a fair system for every member even brand new ones after the release of the game.
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again i hate all of them but EPGP is prolly going to work the best...
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You seem to be confusing the Furious Angels with a pack and wild dogs that play WoW, trust me when I tell you your perception is way way off.
Corruption will always kill any loot system before it get off the ground, something you do not have to worry about here.
You seem to be against a system that in fact enforces what you want out of one. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I am fully against a Loot Council 100%. However, if your worried about being judged on performance, attendance and overall attitude -- Loot Council is not the only system that governs that. In fact it's probably the only system that says it does, but leaves it open to the council to IGNORE such information and dictate how they see fit.
Where I am confident that would not happen here, Loot Council is not the route we should go and I think others would agree.
EPGP is a system where you earn your points by showing up, doing well, and doing what your supposed to be doing. You then "purchase" your items by bidding your points and whoever has more points which is dictated by who's shown up more, attended more, been on time more, etc wins. You lose the points and move down the list, but that's the beauty the list CONSTANTLY changes and rotates which gives everyone a shot at loot.
Loot Council is a babysitting system where you try to impress those who have POWER over your gear and the POWER of you getting that gear first. It promotes brown nosing, drama, number buffing, and a long list of crap we don't need. Also to be quite honest, the whole Idea behind "Loot Council" just isn't what FA is all about.
For the moment, some are for both it seems. The brass is going to have to step in here sooner or later and a formal debate will have to be had IMO to hammer this out, but I hope those who will be heading the final call here really look at it. I know Venlar and I started this wonderful topic in TS the other night, but it's going to be a cornerstone issue is we choose to enjoy every aspect of the game.
At the end of the day, whatever is chosen I will roll with but I will fight for a fair system for every member even brand new ones after the release of the game.
A BAD loot council system is one where you have to impress your officers for gear and suck up. The POINT of loot council is to gear up the lower geared people to keep the raid progressing and improving continually. If the loot council your in , revolves around impressing officers, then your in a corrupted loot council. As you said your against loot council and i respect that but im against EPGP and DKP 100% myself.
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Screw loot. Craft me something reasonable and I'll be more than happy to work harder to kill more sith with lesser gear. Why? The Force is my ally.. and a powerful ally it is.
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Hate them all. There is nothing that would turn me away from fa, but a bad/unfair loot system would test that. Bad/unfair systems have destroyed better groups than us, so I'm anxious about this.
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I mean, really, I'm going to be fine regardless. Not necessarily the point of this conversation, but I think what I'm trying to say is, if the group is cool, I'm good with whatever.
And ya'll are awesome. So I think we'll survive whatever.
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I mean, really, I'm going to be fine regardless. Not necessarily the point of this conversation, but I think what I'm trying to say is, if the group is cool, I'm good with whatever.
And ya'll are awesome. So I think we'll survive whatever.
Hear hear!
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This has somehow turned into a he said she said debate, with that in mind I'm retiring from this topic until official word on it is present.
Whatever is chosen as Dration has pointed out with work for us one way or another.
Fuse is also correct in his statement and I share the same concern, which is why I've voiced all I have to on the matter.
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I've always felt rather strongly that everyone who takes part in a particular raid should have a shot at the items they need that drop during that raid. Basing loot distribution on how many times you've been able to take part in raids in the past makes attendance pointless for the people who have real life obligations during most raid times but finally luck out and are able to attend one. That said, someone who has already received one of the good drops during the current raid should probably let the following ones go to others who haven't yet.
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I'm actually a fan of the need/greed system in wow. Those who need it take precedence and it's random on who wins it - with the ability to trade that item to another person in that raid if a deal is made within a certain timeframe. Next up is whoever chooses greed and is also then based on a random roll.
It keeps politics, opinions, and "I'm here more/less" BS out of it and leaves no one to whine to but bioware. It also leaves any input from officers or other members out of the equation - which I believe is mostly a good thing for faction stability.
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To those of you that weren't with us in MxO or Darkfall, I can tell you now to save you the trouble of worrying. If you're really anxious about dungeon drops, rare loot and other fine collectibles, get over it or get out now. I cannot ever remember anyone in this faction actually offended/complaining about not getting their loot drop.
Quite the opposite, I know myself and other vets will put ourselves at the end of a queue or traded our gear to let people who aren't on a lot a chance to get a good drop.
Why? Because this is FA, we're courteous to each other, patient, and we can win pvp fights without solely relying on rare drop gear.
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ahh, need or greed was in age of conan too. Was it not abused however by people "needing" something they ought to have "greeded"?
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To those of you that weren't with us in MxO or Darkfall, I can tell you now to save you the trouble of worrying. If you're really anxious about dungeon drops, rare loot and other fine collectibles, get over it or get out now. I cannot ever remember anyone in this faction actually offended/complaining about not getting their loot drop.
Quite the opposite, I know myself and other vets will put ourselves at the end of a queue or traded our gear to let people who aren't on a lot a chance to get a good drop.
Why? Because this is FA, we're courteous to each other, patient, and we can win pvp fights without solely relying on rare drop gear.
This is why I'm nervous about putting a system in place. It's trying to fix something that, at lest in other environments, hadn't been broke. We have many new members since those days and a game that none of us have played yet, so I think any decision on this would be premature -and suspect most agree on that.
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I can agree with that, I just want to enjoy the game with my friends.
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ahh, need or greed was in age of conan too. Was it not abused however by people "needing" something they ought to have "greeded"?
It's common for that feature to be abused when grouping with random people, but when hunting with friends and guildmates it's a pretty efficient way to keep things moving.
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This is why I'm nervous about putting a system in place. It's trying to fix something that, at lest in other environments, hadn't been broke. We have many new members since those days and a game that none of us have played yet, so I think any decision on this would be premature -and suspect most agree on that.
Agree completely. Best for us to play the game first, and get a feel for how looting works, before deciding if a distribution system is even necessary.
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something else to consider... MT's are usually raid leaders from my WoW experiences, so are any of the officers looking to tank? i had to ask because I have no energy to sift through posts lol
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I know Tbone is playing a Jedi Knight, so he'll be tankish.
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is there even a confirmed Jedi Sentinel tanking spec?
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Yes. Subclass of knight.
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If Tbone is going Sentinel then a tanking role wouldnt be an option
"The Sentinel Advanced Class remains targeted at players that prefer damage dealing gameplay over other roles. The variety between Sentinel skill trees has been increased, allowing players to specialize in several very different ways of dealing damage."
but i really dont see that being an issue as ive been raid leader many a time as a dps.
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Why would we make any decisions based off one character - even T. Just because he is the faction head doesn't mean that he will necessarily be the raiding head. Any class can "lead" a raid.
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Either way we should seriously consider putting together our core group of guys/gals that are going for world firsts/server firsts right off the bat.
Having a solid group that are dependable who is experienced in raid content. Have them there way to cap and finish out those raids as fast as possible can get us some serious recognition whether it be a 10/25 man setting ... Coordinating this group would be extremely hard based on we don't want to 'Hurt' peoples feelings. BUT when trying to accomplish world firsts/server firsts people will have to realize unless you are top notch on your game you might get your feelings hurt :X
Typically a 25man raid group will be a bit more harder to coordinate but in the end will have more benefits (i.e. more people geared). I don't feel that our raiding right off the bat should be based on what order you are in. Although it wouldn't be a bad thing to have it organized in such a way but if you guys are like me, and love competition I want to see us be the best and beat out the rest of the competition :)...
Who agrees on putting in for vacation days on release ;D
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you can raid lead off any class its all about delegation of duties, I regulary lead off of both mellee dps or a healer. The sentinal sounds alot like a champion in lotro which is my main. As for days off it all depends on the time of release i will save 5 days of annual leave but if it is released on a september i cannot have any time off work
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It doesn't matter on who raid leads ... The person that is raid leading should be the most experienced person of that raid and since we all have no experience in the game at this point as far as end game content goes why are we even determining who is leading?
We don't know the mechanics of any of the fights and to pick one sole person to be in charge of everyone at this point or to even single out a class would be an error on our parts.
We need to be all flexible and all up to par. Each member of the raid needs to be on point accountable for there own mistakes and if continued to make mistakes shall be sat out. As far as loot rules go. I have used EPGP for quite some time and I am extremely fond of it personally. Although we are unsure if we will even be able to run addons for the game at this point or if we can even run a mod for loot distribution.
I think a lot of the people on here are looking way to far into it. Remember release isn't for another 6-12 months... With that being said we should clarify who is considered hardcore, casual, and not so much into raiding
Hardcore meaning: the group selected or that wants to be on that very first world kill of end progression bosses. Raiding 3-6hrs a night some times more until we have all content cleared 5-6 nights a week. Raid wipes more then 2-3 times on your own account you are sat out and someone else pulled in. No hard feelings but to progress is to progress and sometimes people have to learn the fight and study it more. THERE WILL BE WIPES, but its taking the new content, learning from it and strategically planning how to execute it properly without errors.
Casual: the players that are okay with raiding a set 3-4 days 3-4 hours each time and that's it.
Everyone that falls outside of those categories can team up together for raiding or B be on the bench for the casual raid group and either progress into a spot with them or focus more on other aspects of the game.
I know that there might be a bit of controversy with what my statements are but I think this is what it will take for us to be on top.
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Each member of the raid needs to be on point accountable for there own mistakes and if continued to make mistakes shall be sat out.
No, they will be helped and taught how to do it properly - we are all going to be very fortunate to be FA and we will not exclude our members for a wipe.
Say for instance that a person you decided was not appropriate for a raid then became something of a legendary crafter - you would not expect to be excluded from benefiting from his skills merely because you made a choice to excel at something different. We will all help eachother.
We do things as a team, and all together, until people have what they need. Lets wait and see exactly what is expected in raids before too hardcore planning is undertaken.
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Quote Ademaro
Each member of the raid needs to be on point accountable for there own mistakes and if continued to make mistakes shall be sat out.
Hardcore meaning: the group selected or that wants to be on that very first world kill of end progression bosses. Raiding 3-6hrs a night some times more until we have all content cleared 5-6 nights a week.
Raid wipes more then 2-3 times on your own account you are sat out and someone else pulled in.
[End quote]
(First of all, yes we do need to be flexible and accountable for our actions. That being said, the furious angels don't "set people out" just because they are not up another teamates expectations. Instead we instruct, give pointers and help bring eachother up to speed so that we dont have weakness but fight together as a coehesive fighting unit. Yes there will be some that are more into raiding, others more into crafting, exploring etc. However it is through teamwork that we are strong. Which brings me to my next point. I have issue with your Hardcore definition.
Now I understand there can be more than one meaning of hardcore.
There can be hardcore crafter, hardcore pve endgame content and hardcore pvpers. But lets take your example of end game bosses/pve. If you only take players that you think are the best then a few things happen. Either you can only play when those people are on and therefore isolate the rest of the angels or you dont play. Either way thats bad the way I see it. Lets take it one step further. I dont see the level of priority that you speak of when it comes to being the first to reach the "end game content". I would rather it take us alittle longer to finish the end game and know how to play together as a team than having that uber gear before anyone else. In my experience gear isnt as important as guts and fortitude and the willingness to stand by your teamate through thick or thin and knowing how to listen to orders and work as a team. All this takes perfect practice and we wont get that if we leave others behind.)
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Each member of the raid needs to be on point accountable for there own mistakes and if continued to make mistakes shall be sat out.
No, they will be helped and taught how to do it properly - we are all going to be very fortunate to be FA and we will not exclude our members for a wipe.
Say for instance that a person you decided was not appropriate for a raid then became something of a legendary crafter - you would not expect to be excluded from benefiting from his skills merely because you made a choice to excel at something different. We will all help eachother.
We do things as a team, and all together, until people have what they need. Lets wait and see exactly what is expected in raids before too hardcore planning is undertaken.
Your statement Nocry just summed up my feelings on FA. I have fond memories of MXO. A great example of this is I was not the best player in the guild by far esp in pvp and tournaments. However some of the other angels took me under their wings so to speak. After tutoring me on proper macros and perfecting my build in martial arts and my gear... well I remember quite a few tournaments where I placed in the top 3. Those victories were very special to me... not because they just felt good but because I knew I had an amazing team behind me that made them possible. Then on top of that was the amazing teamwork and people that came together in general pvp and live events. This is why I truly love this guild. It's never been about the individual players but how we come together as a team.
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To clarify I was talking more or less about the hardcore raiding group that is going for world firsts/server firsts. In all honesty there is no room to "carry" members in raiding at that level of play. If I am the only one that hopes to achieve that level of raiding (competitively) within the guild then I have no problem but what I am looking for at this point is people within the guild that ARE that serious about raiding. The guys/gals that DO want to bring the huge burden on and are seriously experienced.
I personally have been in guilds that are charged currency in game for when people cause wipes on farm content. Don't get me wrong I dont feel that is a viable way to make your players preform bud it did work.
All in all we play the game to have fun. But you guys must understand there are a select few people out there that really push to be top of the world. Once they have accomplished that and once they have gotten world firsts there is no reason that they can turn around and help out the casual portion as well maybe split up in 1/2 to help teach everyone amongst the guild.
But personally before walking into any raid instance I have always done the homework on it ... memorizing tactics and strategy has always been a strong point of mine. But I will reiterate this once again, I know that there are other people just like myself in this guild that take PvE content very seriously. That do strive to be the best and/or hope for best in the world. Those are the people I hope to seek out to group up for a hardcore raid progression group. Once content is cleared split up amongst the rest and help other people gear and progress
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i'm honestly a little more curious about how the raids are going to be handled just in terms of numbers, scheduling, and other pragmatic issues (i think from there the larger and potentially more hairy discussion of team-A/team-B can evolve). FA is obviously going to be big enough to fill more than one raiding group. so there's always going to be some "leftovers" so i'm curious as to the overall general strategy we're going for in terms of getting the most people involved (those that want to of course) in the end-game content.
for example: in theory, let's say raids are comprised of 5 4-person groups, so 20 people per raid instance. and say we have 60 active members. I assume we'll have a handful of raid times/days mixed around for variety and various peoples schedules and geographic locations. will we say for example, raid team-X runs "instance Q" Sundays from 7-10pm, and continues the raid on Wednesdays from 7-9pm. Meanwhile raid team-Z raids "instance Q" Saturdays from noon-3pm, and continues the raid on Thursdays from 2-4pm.
This is all of course completely hypothetical, but the rough idea is that we get at least 40 out of the 60 people in the guild into primary raid content and possibly 5-15 more that become "infill" for people that cannot make "day 2" of the scheduled raid content. For all i know BW is going to have some really bad-ass raid/calendar system that makes managing a lot of this stuff really straightforward (and maybe even all this crap i'm typing is completely a moot point). But i thought this hypothetical exercise might be good to get the inkling of the planning ball rolling around in their heads, for those that maybe are not so familiar with raiding, raid lockouts/being saved to instances, etc.
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If it's like wow, this whole thread may have some merit and be worth venturing into. If raids are like mxo, this was nearly a complete waste of 5 pages. If there is no lockout, raids times don't matter and can be fluid like we always had them before. (I prefer this) Classes do not seem to be structured like wow, so raid makeup wont be similar.
I suppose a reasonable discussion can revolve around do you WANT a wow type system or another system - but again, without getting there and being there for a few months and leveling our characters to a point where we can raid, I think it's silly to assume.
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"raid lockouts" have been confirmed via screenshot releases (in the codex info release).
http://jedicron.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Lore-Codex.jpg (just on the right side of the "codex" tab)
so i think (unfortunately) it's not going to be easy-breezy fluid style raid whenever we want like MxO. i have the feeling it's going to be more of a pain-in-ass WoW style. meaning at some point we're gonna have to get our hands dirty with planning and scheduling.
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Pain in the ass? I personally feel like WoW revolutionized raiding... but that's just my personal opinion. Having raid lockouts will encourage people to progress...
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i'd agree that they changed the way MMOs are played. i have no problem with the WoW style other than i've suffered through years of "oh damn, so and so didn't show so now we can't raid." (the life and times of a small mostly friend-based guild.)
the pain-in-the-ass comment was just referencing the fact that there's logistics involved. aka we HAVE to plan raid times and whatnot. can't just quickly put a group together and go run a big instance.
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Luckily with the size of the guild I don't think "no-shows" will be an issue but it'll have to be monitored and if people aren't showing up on time there needs to be rules set up for penalties...
I've ran more casual raid groups where if you were late without notification there would be a warning. After a repeated offense you would be sat and not allowed to raid for 'X' amount of time.
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With all due respect Ademaro, there needs to be a better system than "punishment" to motivate our fellow angels. After all The Furious Angels are about having fun, thats why we play right? You don't want to turn this game into another job, we all have enough of those to go around.
An example would be, instead of sitting people out and punishing them. Reward those that put in more time with more guild advancement/rank/to be determined.
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No worries man. I am just personally passing along what has actually worked for me...
EPGP/DKP etc reward those for being on time with loot, showing up to raids etc so that's not an issue ... But if we are talking 10 man raiding hypothetically ... 1 Person not showing up is a huge kick in the nuts to the rest of the group and sometimes that person is irreplaceable. Bringing someone that normally doesn't raid with the group means teaching the person the strategies, the fights and hoping that they can fulfill the role up to par of the person that didn't show (plus the lack of gear that, that said person may have)... I know tanks that do almost all of the work for the dps (as far as interrupts etc) so the dps can focus solely on dps'ing. If that tank doesn't show up unannounced your talking about possibly putting someone else in a position that is not used to doing that job hence a snowball effect.
Penalizing people for not showing up is typical for most people that have raided in games such as WoW or other popular raiding MMO's and "letting it slide" can only go so far. If someone is repeatedly week after week not showing up, not being on time, its frustrating for the other members of the group as well as the raid lead... Assuming that the raid system is much like raiding is implemented in WoW, calling off raids can be very depressing for a lot of people especially when it comes to progression.
Needless to say I don't think people not showing up will be a issue for FA. I am confident that those that don't have much experience will be quick to pick it up. Everyone here seems extremely dedicated, although I am just bringing up a point that may be considered for those that do run the raid groups and those that may be in-experienced.
To clarify in all honesty Seint, I don't want any of what I did say to offend you.
I have lead many raids where no shows were the demise of guilds... literally. FA as a whole is more RP/PvP based guild as it stands (from what I know) BUT if we are looking to raid and looking to dig into the PvE aspect of this game we do need to find those who can dedicate themselves to be there on time and commit to it week in and week out.
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..if people aren't showing up on time there needs to be rules set up for penalties...
After a repeated offense you would be sat and not allowed to raid for 'X' amount of time.
Not going to happen. We're here to have fun, and real-life priorities come first. We shouldn't punish someone because they missed a raid because they had to take their kid to the doctor.
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I think Ademaro is talking about the choice to be a hardcore raider. If you don't have the time or commitment for that, you don't have to choose to do it. Because there are potentially 10 other people depending on you, you have to think of it kind of as a job shift. If you can't make the shift, find someone to cover your shift and let the group know. If you can't find someone to cover, at the very least let the group know so they are not there waiting on you. If you already know that you can't commit to the same time every week, then just don't sign up for it. We could easily have a more casual raiding schedule as well where you can just sign up for the weeks/times that you know you can be there.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a member to confirm that they will be late or can't make it if they signed up for the commitment. We have a text messaging system, emails, PMs, TS, Steam, AIM, etc. that should make that kind of communication fairly painless, even if something comes up last minute. If it's a choice between someone who always makes their commitments or let's people know when they can't and someone who just flakes out half the time, I don't think it's unreasonable to give priority to the more responsible person.
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Tbone in all honesty hit it on the dot.
being accountable for something signed up for ahead of time ...
Devoting hypothetically Tuesdays-Thursdays 6-10pm EST time for raiding is kind of your standard or whatever your raid group decides upon and whatever is best suitable for the guild.
But I would personally like to throw out there anyone that would be interested in like a 4-5 (possibly more nights depending on the popularity) night a week raid group that I am interested in it and would be willing to help set it up if necessary or do whatever kind of pre-work prior to game release. I personally am more into PvE end game content typically over PvP, although PvP is definitely something I do love to do.
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I can't wait for raiding in this game :D
edited ** sorry guys hahhaa
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I keep seeing this word Punishment a lot.
I can see why Punishment in response to something less desired can be attractive for some people. In most cases it teaches right from wrong, helps individuals learn a certain way or a proper way to do things.
However, it also manifests resentment, discomfort, hatred and a plethora of other awful feelings and emotions. This is something I feel everyone can agree with me on when I say, that's not the Furious Angel attitude or atmosphere we present to others and especially ourself.
For the most part, your spot on for the structure on times, dates, and the general how to do's of setting up a raid sequence.
There is a lot that goes into something like this and for us it will be a bit more on the large scale side. Specifics must be known to construct this in a proper fashion. Perhaps a facts post or sub topic should be made to confirm or deny certain aspects of TOR raiding. That way when the knowledge of the game is known by everyone, we can then start tailoring it to how we want to approach the end game content.
In the end I would really like to start avoiding the Punishment word and potential mentality at all costs. I personally have been a Realm first guild in World of Warcraft before and Punishment has always been a big thing for such a guild. It was great having certain things before the other 95% of the game's player base and I really enjoyed the content at a rapid glass chewing rate. However, the flip side is 50% of the guild didn't like each other, 30% of the guild never spoke to the other 70%, 15% of the guild were complete jerk offs you would honestly consider punching in real life and the remaining 5% which was the Guild Leadership were genuine monsters.
So without blabbing any further, let's just try to avoid aspiring to be something or someone else and just be the Furious Angels and do it our own way.
:)
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Punishment may be looked at by some as punishment but to me its a form of positive encouragement. I am not saying in any way shape or form if you are 5 minutes late book across the face. Repeated offenses etc should be dealt with in other ways, being "punished".
The raid group I ran (keep in mind more of a hardcore raiding mentality) raided 5 nights a week until all content was cleared and we worked on a 3 strike rule. You break ANY rule whatsoever from being late to being disrespectful to a member... cursing etc and you were warned.
2nd strike Probation meaning you screw up again and you are sat out and or your membership is put under review and decided whether or not the offender was honestly worth keeping around.
Having fun is what its all about but be real, do you think its fair like I said before to let someone treat everyone like crap in your raid group and let them get away with that? No one would have respect for ANYONE.
I understand your drive to have a great environment but lets be real... Either way we are in a 70 person guild at this point pre release, there will be people those few that just don't get along. Some may be jealous of others, pinned up aggression towards others. I am sure some people hate me already who don't even know me just from speaking my mind and being real about situations that I feel are worth discussing.
I honestly mean no offense to anyone when I discuss raiding, but this will personally be a big aspect of the game and I obviously care about progression and the guild doing well.
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... cursing etc and you were warned.
Ut ooo... half of our masters are screwed then...
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I understand your drive to have a great environment but lets be real... Either way we are in a 70 person guild at this point pre release, there will be people those few that just don't get along. Some may be jealous of others, pinned up aggression towards others. I am sure some people hate me already who don't even know me just from speaking my mind and being real about situations that I feel are worth discussing.
You confuse the Furious Angels with people from World of Warcraft who are pathetic excuses for human beings. The above Bold, is not FA in any sense of the statement. The Furious Angels are like minded people who get along and play together to have fun first and fore most. That being said, if the above in bold is what's assumed is going to be how it is here, you really need to have a so called "reality check".
You really are missing the point, it's the same reason we will not strike someone down for making a mistake over helping them learn how to not make the mistake while staying a friendly.
As I said, things will have to be put into perspective and designed around how the Furious Angels will do it, not a barbaric method that works for a different kind of people in a different game.
I'm sure rules will be put into place, but a negative attitude coupled with steps taken to correct those mistakes will not be done here, I'll stake my life on it. This is in no way an attack on you, I even applauded your general outline on somethings. I feel as if you are taking what I said too personal, it was just a statement made towards the subject, not it's poster.
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This is an interesting debate, but please keep it on topic and make sure it doesn't reduce itself to flaming.
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So now that more info is starting to come out about raiding I was hoping to get people's opinion on this subject once again. From whats come out so far it seems like at the very least we are looking at 20 character raids. These raids are also supposed to be heavily story driven and from appearance boss heavy. It's also noteworthy that world bosses will be apparent early on and these may serve as a good starting point for forming groups and learning how to participate in a raid.
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really? all i found is that small raids are 8-man... but nothing about how large is going to be the big ones...
about the 8man... i suppose 1 for each AC in the raid group. I guess we'll just roll need-before-greed? Anyways... what i think will happen is that within this guild there will be group of friends... people that will like each other more than others... and will have preference in the groups... it will be either orders will group more with those of the same orders, or the guild going to divide itself between oldies and newbies...
Me, I know for a fact that since my (Master Adad's) Order has mixed clases... I wont be looking too far for the clases I need for my raid group, but i will try not to have favorites... So if i get a chance to be leader... It will be first come first serve, as i suppose its the most fair way, althou if i see someone in particular not getting picked up too often, i will take him with me.
Anyways, what im saying is that in an 8 man there wont be so much drama as for item rolls since those 8 man will most likely be close friends... but we still have to figure out a way for the big ones. I know the leaders wont let the whole thing go down with someone bitching... but theres always the chance of someone starting a riot.
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So i thought since we are getting fairly close to launch I'd bump this topic back up. Especially since we have a lot of new members and I'm sure we will have a lot of opinion on this issue. I'm also hoping that since we've had some member that have had extensive experience in the beta we could get this discussion started again with more information on the actual raiding system. Even if that isn't the case I think it would be good to bring this topic back up for discussion. For those not familiar with the topic please feel free to read through the forum. I tried my best to compile the major systems that are in use in the initial post and there has been a lot of debate back and forth since then. Any addition input, opinions or ideas are gladly welcome.
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Updated the thread with a poll.
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FA "Socialist" Distro. I personally despise the idea of developing a point system or any kind of hierarchy to determine who gets what. I fear the drama that would ensue if someone felt they were getting shafted.
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Everyone gets a loot bag with class-related gear in raids, so I don't believe a DKP or other system will be needed. At the most I could see a simple trade system where, if you and I are both Jedi Knights and I got a Guardian chestpiece and you got Sentinel boots, we might trade them. But since EVERYONE is rewarded for doing a raid, there's no reason to save up points to reward people later.
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Yeah there's no need for a whole loot system. What's built in the game is good enough. Follow the standard Need before Greed and we'll be fine.
Also, no rolling for alts and no rolling for alt classes or "just in cases". So that means, if you're running as a tank you only get to roll on tank stuff. If no one wants the item then ask. But yeah, ninja looters and greedy looters will get dealt with quickly.
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Gear is a crutch. Pass
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Wow this is some good stuff. A lot of it can be applied to things other than raids tho, since the situation is fairly resolved. There are some other ideas (that I know our leaders have been thinking about and working with for a while, **our leaders rock, remember that, and don't take it for granted** My plan to contribute to this discussion (and others) is as follows
1) I am going to read through all the current posts
2) I am going to write down the ideas i see that make sense/ comments that make sense
A) Especially If I get ideas from these things, recognition needs to go to the originator
B) If it is something that is wanted. I can quote all the things I have seen, but that would take a ton of post space, and is very unnecessary.
3)I Will Compile all my findings at the end (this may take a few weeks so I will submit a few quick comments and ideas, that may help to jump start some things that may be beneficial. However If these things are address in different forums I will make the necessary changes and site this page in the comments i make on the post in the correct forum.
4)Once I finish everything, I will make sure that my posts have links going both ways (as is the norm)
5)I'm gonna keep a level head about all this stuff. Its a game yes, but if we were to really think about it, some very beneficial stuff to society as a whole, can come from people learning in video games, rather than real life, (it just needs to be supervised by someone with extensive experience in this method of training)
More to come...
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i think the loot-bag system that they have in-game pretty much makes this whole thread/discussion a moot point doesn't it? (which i think is brilliant because it kills any potential loot drama.) Or is that loot-bag system not in place for raids?
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Eeth, lol yes. This thread should get locked.
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Sorry guys I was unaware of those mechanics. I suppose it is a moot point then. Well at least bioware is ahead of the game =p
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Do we know if the system is
A. Only get loot from the bags
or is it
B. Everyone gets a bag plus the boss drops a few things?