The Furious Angels
FA Discussion => Off Topic => Topic started by: Erathaol on November 07, 2009, 12:11:42 am
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So a few days ago, my brother showed me this game called League of Legends. He said it was like DOTA (Defense of the Ancients) in Warcraft 3, but that was actually sort of an understatement. It's JUST like DOTA and even made by the same people. Apparently they made it so big as designers of a Use Map Settings map for Warcraft 3, that they decided to form a game company and create a full game based on that same idea.
It's absurdly addicting and really fun. Super competitive, too. The game's a bit hard to explain properly, so I'll just say it's like a 5v5 match of Warcraft 3 where you only control a hero. Yeah, it's fantasy, but it's still wicked fun that's best of all FREE. It's a simple game that can be played while we wait for a real game to devote our time to.
Check it out at http://www.leagueoflegends.com/
My handle is Me Like Pie, friend me if you decide to download it.
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Yea a few friends of mine at work sent me a beta invite and said its a lot of fun. Not sure if I'm going to try it or not yet.
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Worth resurrecting this thread as now more FA are playing. I can't remember the handles of everyone, so it would also be a good idea to list what your name is in LoL.
<--- da6onet
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I played for a month or so and stopped. If you guys are hitting it hard, I'd totally get back into it. I only played with Annie.
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Main account - Me Like Pie (level 30)
Secondary Account - Erathaol (level 16)
Tertiary Account - Lathiari (level 11)
More FA playing, huzzah!
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I played for a month or so and stopped. If you guys are hitting it hard, I'd totally get back into it. I only played with Annie.
We have lots of Members playing it... ArchNemesis is playing it, Diados, Setun, G, Pendas... Even Tbone is playing it...
Anyways... if you decide to join add me as friend. IGN: Arawnx
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Broin started playing last night. Now I wish the team size could be bigger since we now have an average of 7 players at a time.
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TheTbone
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Archnemesis26
=D
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Lotier
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likwidtek
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Handy tip, to talk to people that are not in your current game via the LoL chat, just type /r personsname yourmessage
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EnochX, downloading it now.
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Broin FA
Some bastard already took Broin... First time its ever happened
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Broin FA
Some bastard already took Broin... First time its ever happened
Yotogi probably did it. That sick bastard :2d
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Kind of like Broin, some asshole took Setun, so I'm using Sharsis.
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For those of you who play LoL please feel free to post/vote yes/bump/upvote my post on this thread.
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=694336
tl;dr - Ryze got "balanced" in an odd way and I'm offering a solution to fix that.
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I've been playing as well, ingame name is Keeloth.
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you all playing on NA servers only? currently looking for some people on the EU servers to lvl my account there up with, so just checking in, since I might disappear on that client for some time ^^
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I wouldn't mind starting a new account on the EU servers. Not sure how to go about creating it, though.
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its a bit dumb, you need to download another client and create a new account
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you need to download another client
You lost me right there... sorry :S
Why do you want to play EU anyways?
I'm scared ill be really laggy on the EU servers anyways
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Im so liking playing with 30 ping instead of almost 200 first of all...and tbh its just something Ive decided that I want a lvl 30 on both servers, just cus I can....meh...kinda using my time on something until more interesting games appear ;)
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Lool got it... Thing is... i got 200 ping in US server already... dunno how much in EU :S
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***Warning, Wall of Text***
I feel like I have a jungle/ap/tank amumu build that is up to snuff for ranked games, but I wanted to throw this out there for those to admire or criticize.
I kind of don't want to post on Mobafire just because I never seen anyone else doing what I do with Amumu and I don't want it to become the flavor of the month (resulting in an inevitable nerf).
Main Stats
~3400 HP
~200/160 or 150/210 armor/mr (150 = 60% mitigation, 200 = 67%)
~500 AP
Theorycraft section:
Why Jungle?
Amumu has inherent damage mitigation with the passive on his Tantrum, and great anti-hp (read tank/golem/lizard/dragon) spell with despair. Coupled with defensive masteries and he becomes a viable jungler without any traditional jungle runes. Why jungle? I personally feel Amumu has a weak laning ability early game. His mana pool is small relative to the cost of his abilities, and bandage toss has a very long cooldown for harassing, as well it puts Amumu in potentially bad positions. Amumu early game, like any tank, is susceptible to death fairly quickly. So weak harass and relatively weak defense = poor laning phase in my opinion. Basically it comes down to this, my Amumu build requires gold, lots and lots of gold, and you're not going to farm kills with Amumu early game, at least not consistently. Enter jungling. Essentially, a non-countered jungling phase earns as much gold and experience as a perfect laning phase does, but without the inconsistency of a laning phase. By this I mean you can actually figure out how long it will take you to get to each key point of early game, making you consistent in each game, making the only real variable the relative strength of your team vs theirs (which then dictates how you will approach mid-late game).
Why AP on a tank?
Most people in LoL when they think of a tank as someone with 4000+ hp and 200+ armor/mr or a 300/150 armor/mr ratio. For a tank like Rammus, this is preferable, as adding AP or attack damage to him does not increase his killing potential; slow attack speed and low AP ratios and only two of his four spells that benefit from AP. Amumu is a unique beast, one that got overlooked in my opinion, and hopefully Riot devs won't nerf him any time soon. Like Sion, he has two spells that have a 1:1 AP ratio, his ult and bandage toss. Unlike most champions, except for casters (even then!), he actually has an AP ratio on all four of his abilities. That means AP adds damage output to Amumu, making his utility skills into "ow my butt hurts now" utility skills.
Full build level 18:
-Bandage toss with 500 AP does 800 Damage
-Despair with 500 AP does 24 + (5.7% of enemy's max HP) per second (that's essentially an AoE bloodrazor, also don't forget you have a 40dmg/sec sunfire too :-D)
-Tantrum with 500 AP does 427 damage each time you cast it (CD reduced half a second each someone hits you)
-Curse with 500 AP does 755 damage to everyone in a 600 range.
Oh and did I mention, when you auto-attack someone, you reduce their magic resistance by 35. Coupled with an abyssal scepter and mpen marks you're looking to take off/ignore 63.5 magic resistance, which is what most squishy people like a Sivir have total by end game. I have in fact, killed an end game miss fortune with a three hit combo (BT->Tantrum->Ult). She was like "but you're the tank!"..... Exactly :-D
What is a tank?
A tank is someone who intentionally puts himself between the enemy and the carry (ashe/corki/annie/kass, etc). The tank is the initiator, the person who starts the fights. Typically speaking a tank cannot kill the enemy or enemies by himself, he is merely there to hold them in place so the damage dealers can come in and get off their damage combos unhindered.
As I stated earlier, you see a typical end game Shen running around with 3500+ health and 280/200 armor/mr. That means his effective hp is around 12,000. His damage? 137 on auto attacks with a 1.027 speed, his one offensive ability, does 230 damage. Every 8 seconds (less 2 seconds per hit taken) he deals bonus damage (222 bonus damage damage in this configuration).
So in 8 seconds Shen can do 1548 damage with 8-10 arpen or mpen. To put things in perspective, in 8 seconds
My Ashe can put out about 8200 damage (460 AoE) with 40% arpen (4700 ehp)
My Ryze can put out about 6000 damage (2400 AoE) with -58mpen/red + 15% mpen (8100 ehp) - Pre nerf it was about 6700 damage :-/
My offensive Amumu can put out about 5800 (4200 AoE) damage with 63mpen/red (8400-8700 ehp)
My more tankish Amumu can put out about 5100 (3700 AoE) damage with same pen/red (9800-10000 ehp)
The benefit of AP Amumu though, isn't purely in his damage. No, just like Shen, it is his utility. Amumu can stun a single target for 1 second and stun pretty much everyone on the enemy team for 2 seconds. In addition, the more people in Despair's radius, the more damage Amumu does to the overall enemy team.
I'm not knocking Shen as a tank, I actually think he is the best dedicated tank in the game.
Tank Theory and why a slightly weaker/more powerful "tank" is better:
The problem I see with most tanks, especially faux tanks, is that nobody in their right mind is going to take a whack them and tanks usually, like Shen, can't do enough damage to really be a concern. So tanks are intentionally ignored in team fights, even when they initiate, and so the tank is trying his hardest to taunt/stun/slow disrupt the enemy team long enough for his allies to kill them. Sometimes this works, sometimes it does not. Playing as Rammus, with a single target taunt, that works great when your team focus fires their carry, I noticed all too often, I just wasn't disruptive enough to a team of 5 people. Enter my Amumu, a slightly weaker "tank" that hurts like a son of a bitch if you ignore him, and hurts more if you do attack him (tantrum) :-D
I believe it was Keeloth who stated it best, "As a tank, you have to give them a reason to attack you." I believe this is what many people miss out on when they build their indestructible tanks that everyone will try to avoid attacking.
With my damage output (which gets absolutely stupid silly with Baron's buff and elixirs), if the enemy team chooses to ignore me, I will make them pay. If they choose to attack me, I will last long enough that my tantrums, and more importantly, my team, will make them pay.
Ok, so what exactly are you doing with Amumu?
Runes
9xMark of Insight (marks are really only good for offense, and these work best on an AP character)
9xSeal of Defense (gearing toward late game, originally got these when they nerfed HoG, but now allow a larger variety of end game situational items)
9xGlyph of Shielding (I put these on nearly every character I own, MR is the weaker of every character's base defense stats, and most teams are AP heavy these days).
3xQuintessance of Shielding (see above)
End game this gives 44 mres, 24 armor, and 8.5 mpen
Summoner Spells:
Smite (if someone says they're jungling and they don't have this, dodge the queue. Even if they can jungle without it, they will be much much slower at doing so, which defeats the purpose of jungling).
Ghost (Escape/Chase skill)
Masteries:
0/21/9
Defensive:
Tier 1 Resistance 3/3, Hardiness 3/3 (tank stats)
Tier 2 Evasion 2/4 (my preference measly dodge>measly HP regen in a team fight)
Tier 3 Defensive Mastery 2/2 Harden Skin 3/3 (jungle/tank stats)
Tier 4 Veteran's Scars 4/4 (great early game hp for taking on golem at level 1)
Tier 5 Ardor 3/3 (AP boost ftw)
Tier 6 Tenacity (tank stat)
Utility:
Tier 1 Good Hands 3/3 Haste 1/1 (Good hands > Perseverance unless you're a dedicated healer and/or stacked hp regen person like Mundo/Vlad, haste for the ghost spell you'll take and 4th point in T1)
Tier 2 Awareness 4/4 (jungle stat and great to have in general, you don't want to fall behind)
Tier 3 Greed 1/1 (Greed > Smite mastery, if you need me to show you the math, I will, biggest trap just about all junglers fall into. I also use this instead of the extra 40second buff I'd get on Golem/Lizard buff for two reasons: 1- pays for a ward every 12 minutes 2- that extra 40 seconds doesn't really get me that much utility vs a 3minute ward)
Skill order:
W->E->E->Q->E->R, Then R>E>W>Q
Item Build Order:
Ruby Crystal -> HoG -> Faerie Charm + Sight Ward -> Philosopher's Stone -> Boots 1 -> Chain Armor + Sight Ward -> Negatron Cloak + Sight Ward (if needed) -> Rod of Ages -> Merc Treads -> Sunfire Cape or Abyssal Scepter (typically SFC first though) -> Sell Stone, get Rabadon's -> Situational Item (see below)
Situational Items:
If you've gotten to this point in the game 40+ minute mark, you should have a pretty good idea how the game is going, what your team needs, what the enemy is dangerous with, etc.
Offensive choices:
-Zhonya's Hourglass (vs AD heavy/dangerous team and you have another tank/tanky person on your team to help with initiating)
-Lich Bane (vs AP heavy/dangerous team and you have another tank/tanky person on your team to help with initiating)
Defensive choices:
-Randuin's Omen (vs AD heavy/dangerous team and you are the only tank or the other tank/tanky person is an idiot or quit)
-Banshee's Veil (vs AP heavy/dangerous team and you are the only tank or the other tank/tanky person is an idiot or quit)
Even with the offensive items you'll still have 8400-8700 ehp (better than tanky dps who hover around 7300-8200 ehp), so you're not exactly going to get burst down. Tanky items give you 9800-10000 ehp, right about where most dedicated tanks end up, the difference is you do 3-4 times their damage.
Strategy:
Early Game:
Assumes Unleashed Golem Start
Ancient Golem -> Base -> Ghost to Wolves -> Wraiths -> Base -> Heart of Gold
That should be around 3:45, 3:15ish if you had a good leash and could skip first base recall. You should start with Despair, then level Tantrum twice.
Then go to Lizard Elder -> Golems -> base -> Faerie Charm + Sight Ward.
This should be right around 5-5:15 minute mark. Place the ward where you want (I prefer river with the ability to see at least two of the enemy's jungle entrance/exits and dragon if possible). You should level Q when you finished with the golems.
At this point you can help gank, cover a lane, or continue jungling. Whatever you choose/need, be sure to place that ward somewhere useful (I personally ward river by dragon by the water lillies)
Ganking:
You really shouldn't be ganking at this point unless someone on your team specifically asks for one. This is because you still aren't that "tanky" and you do not have boots. But you do have Bandage Toss, and if the person calling for one is competent, you can at least harass someone out of a lane or assist in the kill if the enemy is over extended. If you can land a kill or even an assist, kill a few minions and what not while you're there, you should be able to finish off your philosopher's stone before the 7 minute mark. Remember though, risk vs reward, if you die, you're looking at 8minute or later mark.
Cover a lane:
This is a handy thing to do for two reasons. Firstly, your blue golem won't respawn until about the 7:15-20 mark, so you have about 2 minutes to kill anyway. As well, the only spawns that are back up are the wraiths and wolves. Ideally you can grab both of these on the way to cover a lane, but even without them, you should be able to farm enough gold off a couple minion waves to afford your philosopher's stone. Even if a game is going badly, you should still be able to finish your stone before 8 minutes. As soon as you have enough gold for it, go grab it. The key with gold/10 items is the faster you get them, the faster they pay for themselves and earn you a tidy profit (past 21 minutes, you're making pure profit).
Continue Jungling:
If nobody is calling for a gank nor needs you to cover while they buy/heal, then by all means continue jungling. If the other team has a jungler, don't try to steal their jungle unless you see their jungler on the mini map and he's on the opposite side of the map (or in one case I saw, they get executed by their golem, then gogogogo). If they don't have a jungler, it's a good time to go get their wolves and blue golem (in that order). Then come back and get your wraiths and wolves. You should have enough gold to finish philosophers. If they have a jungler and nobody needs a lane covered, go to the top solo lane or whatever lane is getting pushed back and farm minions after you've cleared banshees and wolves. The goal is to get to 620 gold.
Out of Early, into Mid Game:
Now you will assist lanes as needed. As soon as you hit level 6, you're going to start really fucking with people. Basically mix farming jungle, ganking, farming creeps to get your gold up. Boots 1 are worth going back to base for as soon as you have 350 gold, after that, work on your chain armor and negatron cloak (get whatever you need the most first), getting another ward (or 2 if really needed) before you start working on your catalyst/RoA.
I usually can't get Dragon before level 10 because usually there is too much ganking/defending going on that requires Amumu's assistance. That said, once you're level 8 with chain armor you can start getting dragon as soon as it pops up. It also helps to let your team know your intention because two or more people getting dragon makes it go faster and helps defend against an unexpected jungler or other foe happening by dragon.
Mid Game into Late Game:
Once you start working on your RoA, all your slots will be filled and you will not have space for a ward again. This is the biggest disadvantage to this build in my opinion, so join the lobby for a dedicated ward inventory slot on the LoL forums! Ideally you want to get your catalyst by level 12, but I realize that games can go badly and your item progression will be slow.
Late Game:
Once you finish RoA, go back and turn the boots into merc treads, armor into sunfire, negatron into abyssal (you can flip flop the sunfire/abyssal depending on what the other team is doing).
End Game:
At this point 90% of games will be over one way or the other. However, if it's turned into a bit of a stalemate, fear not, Amumu has an answer for that, it's called Rabadon's Deathcap. This item will enhance all your abilities and make a true anti-hp stacker (read Cho'gath) killer (if they're stupid enough to keep standing next to you). You'll need exactly 3200 gold for it, as your Philo Stone sells for 400. After that see the section on Situational items. HoG can be upgraded to Randuins, though usually I end up selling it in favor of Banshees (vs usually AP heavy teams or more recently Zhonya's for hilarious amounts of damage and defense).
"Ok I need to go to work" Game:
I can count on one hand the number of games that have progressed to my full 6 item build, and I ended up winning everyone of those for two reasons. Baron's buff + Elixirs. Amumu with these on him becomes an enemy team's nightmare (not that he is a picnic without them). With tanky build you're around 3700hp with over 500 AP, up to 35% cdr (with blue golem buff) and great mana regen (leave w on). I haven't tested the offensive build, but I think it's around 600-650 AP, only 3300 or so HP.
Your team would have to be pretty incompetent to lose with an Amumu with those stats. I take any squishy in my AoE down to about half health with just my ult, let alone if I target them with my stun (which I do). Everyone else is just clean up with W/E.
tl;dr Amumu is awesome, I build him with AP and still have tank stats :-D
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Wow, awesome guide! I've been toying with Amumu as my next character (*dreams about the all-star Yordle team), I think I may have to try this out.
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Overall, it looks pretty solid with one big caveat. This Amumu REQUIRES team coordination (but doesn't everyone?) to be effective.
I see a lot of "ifs" there, and that's actually an excellent thing to see for any character strategy. It shows flexibility and a built-in method to adapt to essentially any situation.
But this Amumu needs an informed team, for their sake, to survive.
Since you start at blue, you're vulnerable to an early gank that will wreck your day. Your team will need to ensure against that.
Amumu is vulnerable to hard counter-jungling from say a Nunu, so your team will need to be ready to converge on the intruding yeti to eliminate him.
Since your Amumu isn't ganking until at least 6, your team will need to play a bit on the back foot and survive their lane. More importantly, they can't push or they WILL get ganked and they WILL blame the jungler (you) for their own stupidity.
I also think you can get Dragon earlier, so long as you get bottom lane's help. Not sure how early you can get it safely, but that'll be something to work on.
In short, with a team that understands and supports the build, it should work beautifully. With a team that doesn't do either, you're a bit hosed as your allies will crumble with so little early jungle support.
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Nice read! I've been trying to think up a similar ap tanky build for shen for a while but his biggest problem is that he can't farm anywhere near as good as amumu.
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Yeah I forgot to mention that it needs team support to start off with, Top+Mid if blue team or Bottom lane duo if purple team.
One should cover river entrance and one helps leash. This is ideally, and to be honest, I wouldn't take this build into a solo ranked game, especially if the other team had a strong jungler/counter jungler (warwick/nunu).
I can start ganking at around the 5 minute mark at level 4, but you are correct in stating that the good ganks don't start until level 6. That said, each of the three lanes can have one of three outcomes before I enter the picture.
1. Get a kill/out harass and push hard.
2. Stalemate
3. Get killed/out harassed and pushed hard.
I do expect that even if a lane is getting pushed back hard, a competent laner can hold their lane for 5 minutes (read tower hug for 5 minutes). If they can't hold that long, I have found it's because the teams are mismatched (they're way too good) or more likely, that person is having a bad game. Even then, it is rare to lose a tower under 5 minutes.
If 2 or more lanes are having problems, a jungler can only do so much (can't be in two places at once).
That said, I'm trying to play solo queue in normal to get experience with bad teams and worst case scenarios to get practice with my movements around the map.
As for taking dragon earlier, next chance I get I'll test out how early I can do dragon solo. With 2 people I know I can do it at level 8 easily.
EDIT:
I can take dragon at level 8 solo with chain armor. Level 7 would need one more person. 6 and earlier only with at least 3 people.
Level for me happens around the 9:30-10minute mark (junglers like fiddle/warwick can solo dragon pre-level 6 at around 6 minutes)
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Wow! Very nice read! Good Job Dag! Btw i lab your Amumu <3
Yeey for groopies? :P
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One thing I question about this build are the quints of shielding vs. warding. At 18, you get +6.66 MR per quint, for a total of +20 MR, while warding only gives you a flat 4.5 MR throughout the game, 13.5 for all 3. I have to wonder, though, if that extra 6.5 MR is really making a difference endgame, or if it's better to have the 13 right from the get-go.
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I'm always trying to max late game builds as much as possible, that's just my personal preference, the 6.5 difference shouldn't make that huge of a difference, I'm just a perfectionist.
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every point of MR or Armor is another 1% effective health. so 6.5 mr is 6.5% more effective health against magical attacks.
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Indeed, so between 3100-3700 hp 6.5 mr that gives you a difference of 200-240 effective hp vs magic.
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So as some of you may know I've been on a quest to find a melee character that serves as my tanky dps fighter, but there were two things that bothered me, it seems like you can build them to be damage dealers or tanky, but when you try to do both it generally fails.
For the purposes of comparing damage output (which does not translate directly to what happens in game), I am just repeating the same method I used to calculate previous character's total damage of attacks/abilities over 8 seconds. I call this Theoretical Damage Rating (TDR) with AoE estimate, defense pen, and ehp.
For Reference
Ashe - 8200 (460 AoE), 40% arpen (4700 ehp)
Post Nerf Ryze - 6000 (2400 AoE), 58mpen/red + 15% mpen (8100 ehp)
Offensive Amumu - 5800 (4200 AoE), 63mpen/red (8400-8700 ehp)
Tankish Amumu - 5100 (3700 AoE), 63mpen/red (9800-10000 ehp)
Tank Shen - 1550 (0 AoE), 15arpen (12,000 ehp)
The closest I've gotten so far is with Renekton
TDR - 6200 (1600 AoE), 90arpen/red (7600 ehp)
It's not bad, and I have on occassion done well with Renekton.
The way I understand melee champions is that they need to move through the front line of the fight and kill the other team's carry, usually the nuker or ranged ad. Because of that distance to cover, most melee characters have some form of dash, ability to absorb damage and some cc that keeps the carry from functioning while they complete their objectice. This is the sole reason "tanky dps" was created.
Enter my latest theorycraft, Garen. I think people don't see him as a viable pick because he doesn't have that "oh shit it's so-and-so" scare factor, but just doing the numbers, here is what I've come up with.
Offensive - 8752 (2232 AoE) 96arpen/red (7570 ehp)
Defensive - 6650 (2440 AoE) 96arpen/red (9620 ehp)
There are two more inbetween builds that take elements of both, but you get the idea.
Jarvan can be built similar, but I'll admit, he's more complicated than Garen, so I'm sticking with this for now.
I plan on testing this out today in usual normal solo queue fashion (die alot and then get better).
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Ok, so I just bought Nasus and so far I played 3 games... The first I lost, even thou it was my first time with Nasus I did my part as a Tank. I let the others get the champion kills (unless i was alone into a 1v1 or 2v1, in which case, i just raped and did as much dmg as i could and ran cause i dint wanna get greedy and feed just to get a kill) but the others in the team sucked and fed the hell out of everyone. The second game was a VERY interesting one... I think matchmaking dumped me into a premade, because they let me Solo Top and 2 of them went mid. So lane composition was 1/2/2 which I have never seen that... (I have played against a premade where 3 of em went mid and they just sucked the entire game because they where underleveled and underfed, obviously) I think we should look into this 2 mid strategy... The point of it is to rush the mid tower AND let me farm as Nasus, since Nasus is like Veigar, he gotta get minions kills to pump up his Q Skill. Another pros with having 2 mid is more gankage. It could easily become 3v2 Top or 4v2 Bottom, Or just 2v2 Top and 3v2 Bottom at the same time.
I lost the 3rd game too because Matchmaking dumped me into a retarded team.
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So I have to get this out of my chest.... List of Useless Champs:
Lee Sin, Irelia, Kayle, Teemo, Karma, Karthus. Thats it so far.
I din't put Malphite because i guess hes kinda hard to play... I dunno why but I have seen some very good malphites but most of the time they just suck...
About Karma... shes support... and also kinda hard, but people keep playing her and sucking so hard!
About Karthus.... I really dont know what the eff is going on... Hes not the same as he used to be T_T all he does now is wait for enemies to go low to KS. So yeah im dumping him... GG to him thou...
Im THIS close to put Nasus into the list... but i like him T_T Even thou i got my full match history in all lost with him lol
Note: Sorry Setun... I know you like Lee Sin and ur good with it... but he sucks :S... Now, can you prove me wrong and pull a penta some time soon with him? :P
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So I have to get this out of my chest.... List of Useless Champs:
Lee Sin, Irelia, Kayle, Teemo, Karma. that's it so far.
I din't put Malphite because I guess hes kinda hard to play... I dunno why but I have seen some very good malphites but most of the time they just suck...
About Karma... shes support... and also kinda hard, but people keep playing her and sucking so hard!
Note: Sorry Setun... I know you like Lee Sin and your good with it... but he sucks :S... Now, can you prove me wrong and pull a penta some time soon with him? :P
You forgot Soraka, Cass, Late Game Cait, Mundo, Most Ezreals, Galio, New Gangplank, Most Gragas, Maokai, Most Yi, Most Pantheons, Most Trundles, New Xin.
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I have to disagree about Teemo. It does take a skilled hand, though, because if you're not using your mushrooms to ward effectively as well as place them in paces where the enemy is constantly slowed, then you lose a lot of your function. He's also an excellent anti ranged AD carry, missing 100% of your auto-attacks = suck.
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Soraka is kinda useless... shes the third best support imo... first and second being sona and alistar... in any order.
Cass is a good champion, gotta learn how to play her thou.
Cait's early game make up for her late game suckyness...
Mundo is good.
Ezreal is bleh, but not useless.
Galio is the best tank.
The others are good.
My list is for Useless champs... not sucky champs.
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Tested out my offensive Garen today in an ultra late game vs a Yi, Akali, Urgot, Rumble and Rammus.
Yi comes at me with ult and youmuu's... he dies
Then Akali and Urgot ambush me as I run back toward team... Akali dies while hiding in stealth (me spinning), Urgot kills me with a dot, but not before I ult him to death.
Long story short, this is a very anti-carry build, I like it :-)
Still feeling it out though, but went 15/12/11 that game, and that last triple kill got our team the win at the 54 minute mark.
Items for offensive Garen
Youmuu's, Atmas, Lucidity Boots, Wits End, Frozen Mallet, Black Cleaver (plus red/green/blue elixirs).
Rammus does give melee people problems, he should be dealt with by ability casters (had a malz on my team).
Rumble on the other hand, fun as shit to ult him through his shield :-)
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I still need to do some more testing (explain on that later) but here is my preliminary Garen Build/Guide if you're looking for a tanky dps melee character. He may be in Elementz tier 4 group, but I think that's because people generally play him straight tank with no damage output and Garen is incredibly easy to ignore if he has no damage output. Enter my "you noob, what a fail build.... oh shit I'm dead" build.
Highlights
~2800-3200hp + elixirs
~225-312 AD + elixirs
~1.1-1.4 AS + youmuu's + elixirs
~51 armor pen + 45 armor reduction (96 total)
~116-292 Armor
~101-227 MR
~33-38% CDR + elixirs
My assessment, A "fighter" with staying power.
Runes
Marks 9x Desolation
Seals 9x Defense
Glyphs 9x Shielding
Quints 3x Desolation
Masteries
21/0/9
Offensive
1-Crit chance x 3, exhaust x 1
2-Cooldown x 4, Attack Speed x 4
3-Armor Pen x 3
4-Attack Damage x 2
5-Crit Damage x 3
6-Attack Damage x 1
Utility
1-Teleport x 1, Regen x 3
2-Experience x 4
3-Gold/10
Summoner Spells
Teleport, for map control, his Q on short cooldown is a free ghost already
Exhaust, always a handy spell for both defensive and offensive purposes
This is just my preference, you could go more defensive
9/21/0
Grabbing Cleanse or Flash along with Exhaust
Garen's natural tankiness synergizes with defensive masteries, but it does lower his damage output, which he doesn't have naturally. Thus I go with the offensive to try and squeeze out some more damage.
Build Order
Crystal->HoG->Avarice Blade->Lucidity Boots->Brutalizer->Phage->Black Cleaver->Frozen Mallet->Youmuu's + Situational->Last Situational item
Skill Order
R>W as it gets capped>Q>E (spin does 50% less damage to creeps, so it's actually kind of a shitty farming skill until late game).
Laning Phase
Play passive looking for opportunities to last hit minions and harass squishy champions. Generally speaking, you will be outpoked (you're melee), so lane with a ranged partner and/or play passive, last hitting minions only enough so that you can chill by the tower and let your passive heal you. If you work well with your laning partner or are 1v1, you can play more aggressively, utilizing your shield to bait/absorb counter harass from the enemy. Once you hit level 6, it's game on to finish off any low health people, especially people who tower dive you.
Mid game
Finish maxing out courage with creep waves and minor jungle spawns (you can grab red, but you'll be slow in getting it, so make sure your team doesn't need you before you grab it). In team fights/roaming ganks you're looking for targets of opportunity (read: squishy high damage dealers). Silence casters, and especially be ready to silence channeled spells (nunu's ult, malzahar, etc). One thing you should be aware of, until you get your tank items, you can't 1v3, so don't initiate without backup, and if possible, don't always be the one initiating, sometimes your silence can help save a teammate and turn the tide of a fight. Moral of the story, timing is everything. If you're defending a tower, scare people off with your spin move and tank damage with your shield, Ult people who get low hp tower diving.
Late game
Now comes the really fun part. Depending on the enemy team composition you'll have a few options for finishing your build, but only focusing on items that offer magic resist and armor. With these items, you can initiate alongside the tank on your team. If you are the only beefy person on the team, that's fine too, but realize that your role then becomes crowd control with silence and spreading the enemy team out with your spin (people's natural reaction) and focusing people focusing your carries rather than pure anti-carry.
Situational Items (2 Slots)
Vs Balanced Team and you're the only tanky person or your team tank is an idiot/afk (tanky)
-Randuins
-Force of Nature
Vs Balanced Team and you have a dedicated tank on the team doing a good job and you're generally not getting focused down too fast (DPS)
-Atmas
-Wit's End
Vs AD heavy team tanky
-Randuins
-Thormail
Vs AD heavy team dps
-Atmas
-Madreds
Vs AP heavy team tanky
-Banshees
-Force of Nature
Vs AP heavy team dps
-Wit's End
-Hexdrinker (absolutely awesome item vs Karthus)
note*
If you're building these on Leaguecraft, remember that it doesn't take into account your maxed out courage (+25 armor and mr)
You can mix and match the tanky and dps items to your liking for even more combinations, giving this build a good amount of flexibility.
Made it this far? Remember I said I need to do more testing. The biggest problem with this build, and in my opinion, with most melee dps builds, there is really only room for one of them on the team. For whatever reason, most of the games today, even though I insta-locked Garen, people still feel hellbent on picking tryndamere, renekton, yi, gp, poppy, etc.
I firmly believe a team needs three core people to succeed.
AP carry
Ranged AD carry
Tank
If you sacrifice one of those slots with a melee person, your team is missing out on alot in a 5v5 setup vs a competent balanced team.
Now I will say it's ok to have a melee dps and a melee assasin as they serve two different functions (and akali/kat are AP anyway).
So an ideal balanced team set up with Garen would look like this.
Anivia
Ashe
Amumu
Garen
Lux
Lots of CC and a good mix of support/utility, tank, and damage.
Worst case scenario (yes this happened today)
Yi
Renekton
Garen (me)
Tryndamere
Gangplank
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So I've gotten a lot of shit lately from people in LoL for incorporating gold/10 items in several of my builds. In case any of you are considering getting gold/10 items with your champion builds, a few rules and myths busted to follow so you can shrug off the crap you'll get from "l33t" players.
General Guidelines
-Gold items work best in 5v5 games because the longer average match length-35minutes-means you'll maximize their benefit. As such, they are best suited to those who focus on late game builds (opposite of say, double doran stackers).
-You will be weaker early game than someone who builds for early game, but you will be stronger mid and especially late game (assuming you don't feed them-key point).
-Only get the item/s if the stats will truly benefit your character (good example-health on a tank, crit chance on a physical carry. bad examples-straight ability power on ryze, mana regen on renekton).
-Build your first one before the 4 minute mark preferably.
-Build your second (if getting one) before the 8 minute mark preferably.
-Three is tempting mathematically, but generally there aren't 3 that with stats that all synergize with your character and it's hard (read inconsistent) to get 3 before the 10 minute mark (my cutoff point for their benefit). Also, by that point you will want to have boots or some other utility/beneficial item to help your general gaming.
-Don't upgrade/sell before the 17/21 minute mark (unless you somehow managed to get fed enough to buy your 5th and 6th items by then---nearly impossible)
All the arguments I've seen people use against gold/10 items are narrow minded.
Argument 1
They don't pay for themselves until 30+ minute into a game, and after that point the game doesn't usually last long enough to make the profit worth it.
Why this is a stupid argument:
This argument makes a few bold assumptions
1. That you're never going to sell/upgrade the item.
-if gold items are part of your planned 6 item final game build, then this is true, and you're build sucks.
2. That you didn't buy the item until the 17+ minute mark. (they actually pay for themselves in 12-13 minutes because you will either sell or upgrade them).
-gold items are more cost effective the earlier you get them. As a general rule, I don't buy them after the 10 minute mark for this reason.
Argument 2
Buying "pure" items will allow you to earn gold faster through kills and faster creep farm.
-This one is hard to prove one way or the other, therefore my opinion is such that if you can get through your early game without feeding the enemy, your farming ability really shouldn't be so gimped that it makes a discernible difference for the first 10 minutes of the game when you're going to be weak/slow anyway (tested zeal on ashe vs philostone + avarice, creep scores the same) . The opposite benefit is if you get kills early game with gold items, you're really going to snowball.
Argument 3
The stats on gold items suck!
-They are relatively cheap items (765-825), of course they're going to be low stats. However, they are only useless stats if you buy items that don't work well with your character, i.e. avarice blade on a mage, kages on a ad carry, etc. I can tell you from personal experience that having a regrowth pendant->philo stone (~3min usually) on Ashe early game is incredibly useful for keeping her harass shot up and not having to buy hp pots to start, more useful than say, a doran's blade which frankly offers crummy stats outside of the health; a heart of gold offers better cost efficiency.
The Math
Here is the sexy part.
Average 35 minute game
One item at 3:30 + Greed earns you ~1547 gold (assuming you sell at 35)
~763 pure profit
Second item at 7:30 + Greed earns you ~2372 gold (assuming you sell at 35) ~1588 pure profit
If you upgrade they are even more efficient, adding an additional 392 in average value.
I don't know about you, but I thoroughly enjoy having an extra 1600 gold late game. It allows me to invest in 5th and 6th items without having to be ultra fed or go for 60 minutes and helps me catch up if underfed. The beauty of it is that if I don't get kills/farm and can't build 5th and 6th items around 35 minutes, the gold items earn even more pure profit as they await being sold. This especially helpful on tank characters that aren't supposed to be farming off kills in the first place.
Bringing it home
This all really boils down to risk vs reward. If you're a dorans/mejais kind of person, gold items are not for you. Your goal is to farm kills for amassing late game gold and/or go for the early surrender with your constant ownage. If you're like me however, you strive for consistency and try to maximize a lower risk method of gameplay. It always brings a smile to my face when I have amazing stats at the 40 minute mark and that underfed vlad is still holding onto his mejais and doran's ring.
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Hmmm. This intrigues me for Tristana. See, early game I can usually get 1-2 kills with her, while everyone has crap for health, but past that I usually don't get the last hit in kills, being a steady auto-attack DPS as opposed to a bursty nuke type who can time their burst to snatch away that last bit of health and get the kill + gold. Granted, she can farm like a pro, but I wonder if you think an avarice blade or two would be worthwhile on her early game.
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If you plan to build a crit chance item like phantom dancer anyway, then grabbing an early avarice blade (brawlers + 2 pots to start probably) is worthwhile in my opinion. One thing I also forgot to mention, porting back to base to pick up gold items as soon as you have the money is more cost effective if you have the teleport summoner spell to get right back to the lane and farm.
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so someone has been a bit inactive around here, lot of stuff going on, so just read up on this thread, and wow I so disagree with your list of useless champions
imo
ยจ
from the lists I get the feeling that you go from how you've seen people play the champions instead of their actual potential
The best example I have is when I used to solo queue and I got raged at every single game I chose Soraka, because she "suck", usually ending up in a handful of new friend requests after game due to me convincing them that Soraka is nowhere near useless - I usually laugh when I hear people say she is, Ive proven so many times that she isnt and Ive got several friends that has the same (we call it Proraka)
Ill just put my two cents in on some of the other champions listed
The only champions I might agree to being a bit weak is lee xin and kayle, but then again I have still to find people in my crowd that plays them well - because that's what it comes down to, I dont believe in saying a champion is weak and useless just because I havent seen them well played - and after almost 2500 played games half of those in a decent premade elo Ive seen quite a bit
And believe me if someone like me was the only one youve seen play someone like, shen, rammus, cho, morde etc you'd find them pretty useless too ;)
The champions Im most surprised to see on you guys lists is Irelia, Karthus, Soraka, Caitlyn, Mundo, Ezreal, GP, Xin, Maokai, Malphite, Nasus - you've actually got some of my favorite champions amongst these, lol
I could go into a long walkthrough all the champions but I wont for now - too tired - just wanted to state that you guys should be careful to dismiss a champion as useless just because you havent come across a good one
oh and Da6 <3 you for all your theory crafting, been very interesting to read
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I am definitely biased by how I see other people play those characters rather than on what the characters themselves can do.
That said, I also lump people into roles and compare within that role- such as Caitlyn, who I would put in the same ranged ad category as ashe, corki, sivir. Granted each of those have different tools for different jobs, but overall, caitlyn I feel just doesn't bring enough of anything to the late game. Sure you can build her to have high attack speed and damage, but you can do the same for ashe who has more utility with a stun arrow and bigger aoe slow. The traps don't reveal surrounding area, so they aren't as good for map control as say teemo's shrooms. Lastly her ult is a single target nuke that can be blocked by another champ, limiting her utility as a true sniper in team fights.
In other news, I have mathematically optimized damage output for several tanky Ryze builds from 6000ehp to 9000ehp vs people with 100 to 200 MR. If anyone is interested... :-D
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/agree with Dag
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Check out the patch notes-sorry Setun, they messed up your Jarvan :-(
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=730569
I'm a big fan of the new Wit's End, I love me some magic damage mitigation, yes I do!
With the changes to Catalyst/RoA it'll be interesting to see if any more Ryze's stack them mid game.
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I have to agree i don't like the new Wits :S I loved removing their mana... :( Also they nerfed Karthus T_T and just for that imma make him my main again :P
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I have to agree I don't like the new Wits :S I loved removing their mana... :( Also they nerfed Karthus T_T and just for that imma make him my main again :P
The old wit's end was an anti-tank item though, not an anti-mage, which is what I was using it for. It would take someone 40 seconds at capped (2.5) attack speed to drain my Ryze. Someone will die long before that happens. That and Warwick used to piss me off when I played as Rammus with wit's end, now I don't have to worry :-D
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hmm... that is if they found you with full mp... you'll hardly find anyone at full mp unless they just came out of base... anyways... i gotta say that wits end helped me alot... i cant really count the number of times ppl just stood there trying to cast when they were oom... i gotta say i found myself in that situation also a couple of times...
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So I was thinking of posting more theorycrafted champs, but I decided it would be easier to direct any curious people here (http://leaguecraft.com/users/da6onet/builds).
Feel free to bookmark it, http://leaguecraft.com/users/da6onet/builds
I know leaguecraft builds aren't the best way to explain everything, but it's the most user friendly in my opinion and allows me to show you the quick and dirty.
-Known calculation errors (p-dancer move speed, amumu dot ratio, most passives not taken into account like ryze's q or garen's w, doesn't take into account abilities stacks like feast-my AP cho has an EHP ~10000, masteries like archaic knowledge, etc.)
-Doesn't show you build order, summoner spells nor does it talk about playstyle with that build.
If you have questions about any of my builds or suggestions please feel free to pm me or catch me on TS or LoL.
For now I'm only posting builds I consider viable (read-tested thoroughly).
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Mobafire.com is better... take a look into that Dag.
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I'll take a look at it tomorrow. The main thing I want to be able to do is keep the builds private/protected. I'd rather not have someone else outside FA & friends seeing them, lest I have to face against another 600AP Amumu with tank stats :-p
EDIT: You can access full build guides at Mobafire now. In order to keep it just between us FA I'm posting the login ID and password for my profile (as opposed to publishing the builds for public use).
site: www.mobafire.com
login: da6onet
password: furiousangels
Just go under my profile->builds and you'll see them (only have 1 done so far).
I do not have the graphics in yet, just the text. Feel free to add pretty pictures if you want.
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I've posted a guide to using the "unrealistic" or "troll" Ashe build. I'm not sure it would work in ranked games due to it's high cost and glass cannon nature, but it is quite hilarious vs unsuspecting foes in normal games.
If you're familiar with my previous 8 second TDR usage in other builds, this one has a rating of 17,794.
And yes, you can solo baron with it :-)
www.mobafire.com
login: da6onet
pwd: furiousangels
Build Name:
Ashe - How to piss in someone's Cheerios.
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Because I'm a stat whore, here are two of my builds built for extreme late game (6 items, baron's, elixirs). And yes, these were in a custom game, and yes, I solo'd baron with each.
Ashe (don't have all my attack speed runes yet)
(http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8496/ashev.png)
Amumu
(http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/2461/amumug.png)
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Ok you are taking this game way to seriously... I keep my hardcore limit to just faceraping in-game and trying to change and adapt my strategy while mid-game.... You go customs for test-and-errors...
Dont get me wrong... I love reading your posts, they just roxx... I guess im just amazed cause I dont think ill do all that for this game... :P
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I prefer testing in actual matches. I've found a hybrid build that I'm still testing with shen that keeps him tanky but gives a nice boost to his utility.
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I prefer testing in actual matches. I've found a hybrid build that I'm still testing with shen that keeps him tanky but gives a nice boost to his utility.
Those are builds I use in matches, I just wanted to have a record of what stats I'm aiming for (since leaguecraft and mobafire are inaccurate) so that if a game goes long enough I know what my capabilities are rather than trying take screenshots while fighting.
Sadly I cannot solo Baron with any of my other builds, but maybe some game I'll take a screenshot of more sexy stats.
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Ok you are taking this game way to seriously... I keep my hardcore limit to just faceraping in-game and trying to change and adapt my strategy while mid-game.... You go customs for test-and-errors...
don't get me wrong... I love reading your posts, they just roxx... I guess I'm just amazed cause I don't think ill do all that for this game... :P
LOL... that's our Dago... You should just wait until SWTOR comes out. You ain't seen nothin' yet.
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(http://i.imgur.com/szViS.png)
And that is why I don't surrender at 20.
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My general rules for surrendering (or not)
3v3s
-3v3s are so short, you should never surrender.
5v5s
-If it's a ranked game, never surrender.
-If it's a normal game and you're a premade 5, don't surrender.
-If it's a normal game and you're solo or a premade less than 5, any of the following conditions are acceptable for surrendering.
1. Your team is losing badly because of the people not in your party and you can't carry them.
2. Your team is losing badly and you're farming IP/XP and you want to maximize your daily profits (especially if going for FWOTD).
3. You're team is losing badly, and even if you could come back, you don't have time for an hour-plus long match.
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Was able to solo baron with my fighter vs AD heavy team build on Garen. One thing I'll have to remember is even the in game stats page don't take into account things like Garen's passive for his hp regen per 5, Black Cleaver stacks (so Garen effectively ignores 96 armor, not 51) and things like Abyssal Scepter and Amumu's passive (so he ignores 64 magic resist, not 9). But I digress to much, enjoy!
(http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6651/garen.png)
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Well I went into a Ranked... I gotta say I did good. :P
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2286/singedscore.png
I also got a penta right at the end... but i couldnt screen shot :S :'(
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Was able to solo baron with my fighter vs AD heavy team build on Garen. One thing I'll have to remember is even the in game stats page don't take into account things like Garen's passive for his hp regen per 5, Black Cleaver stacks (so Garen effectively ignores 96 armor, not 51) and things like Abyssal Scepter and Amumu's passive (so he ignores 64 magic resist, not 9). But I digress to much, enjoy!
What was your build for this game?
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Was able to solo baron with my fighter vs AD heavy team build on Garen. One thing I'll have to remember is even the in game stats page don't take into account things like Garen's passive for his hp regen per 5, Black Cleaver stacks (so Garen effectively ignores 96 armor, not 51) and things like Abyssal Scepter and Amumu's passive (so he ignores 64 magic resist, not 9). But I digress to much, enjoy!
What was your build for this game?
http://leaguecraft.com/users/da6onet/builds
Fighter vs AD Heavy Team
Stats don't take into account courage passive, EHP is really 7540 (9200 vs AD)
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http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i-CV2d9W4/0/L/i-CV2d9W4-L.jpg
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http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/I-CV2d9W4/0/L/I-CV2d9W4-L.jpg
Sad, but true. I've spent $20 of my own money on the game.
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http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/I-CV2d9W4/0/L/I-CV2d9W4-L.jpg
Sad, but true. I've spent $20 of my own money on the game.
I've wasted more money than I'd care to think about on this game....but I regret nothing!!
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I prefer this aspect of micro transactions then most games do.
I've spent a decent amount of money and it's all just skins. Champs and runes i've earned on my own but i think what they understand is if clearly someone enjoys a game, they'll have little to no problem supporting it.
This is why, despite the fact that skins cost money, i have quite a few different skins for my champs.
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I prefer this aspect of micro transactions then most games do.
I've spent a decent amount of money and it's all just skins. Champs and runes I've earned on my own but I think what they understand is if clearly someone enjoys a game, they'll have little to no problem supporting it.
This is why, despite the fact that skins cost money, I have quite a few different skins for my champs.
Aye I still am keeping a bank of RP for the day they release a cooler looking Malzahar skin (not a huge fan of the rest). Still debating getting Ninja Rammus (http://riot-web-static.s3.amazonaws.com/images/news/May_2011/5-17_New_Skins/Armordillo_Splash_5.jpg)
So far I have
Chrome Rammus (http://www.leagueofreplays.com/images/board/30172.1274117371US)
Warrior Princess (http://mobawars.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Sivir_WarriorPrincess.jpg) and Bandit Sivir (http://clgaming.net/images/news/nocturne/Sivir_Splash_4.jpg)
Commando Garen (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100907191757/leagueoflegends/images/c/c1/Garen_CommandoSkin.jpg)
Pharaoh Amumu (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=14625&d=1264559428)
Freljord Ashe (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100202203736/leagueoflegends/images/a/a0/Ashe_FreljordSkin.jpg)
Uncle Ryze (http://www.lolnerds.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Ryze_Uncle.jpg)
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Ya, the only reason I haven't put any money into the game for things like champs or skins is because I have no money to give. I would totally support them, but right now I have to support myself first.
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I have
Kennen- MD (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110329033035/leagueoflegends/images/c/cd/Kennen_M.D.Skin.jpg)
Akali - Stinger (http://images.wikia.com/leagueoflegends/images/f/ff/Akali_StingerSkin_Ch.jpg), Nurse (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110103203155/leagueoflegends/images/3/38/Akali_NurseSkin.jpg), Blood Moon (http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/250423_221971607821395_155123054506251_922290_4773785_n.jpg)
Shen - Frozen (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110226192128/leagueoflegends/images/0/08/Shen_FrozenSkin_Ch.jpg), Surgeon (http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/4/49831/1673670-shen_surgeon_super.jpg)
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So I finally landed on a support character I enjoy playing. Aura support Sona is ridiculous in team fights. Unlike my experiences as Soraka and Janna, Sona's effect on team fights is very noticeable. The first game against people was with a competent team. The other team never pushed us back further than the outers. The second game was with a team that thought splitting off from the group to focus Alistar instead of Soraka or any of the damage dealers was a good idea. The other team pushed us all the way back to our Nexus with one turret left. However, once everyone stayed within range of my auras we ended up acing them twice and after the second ace won by pushing mid all the way to their Nexus. Simply amazing how much Sona can keep a team on the brink from getting all killed or when on the offensive, steamrolling with speed and power to victory.
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Pretty amazing watching the best of the best go at it.
http://season-one-championship.na.leagueoflegends.com/
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Totally. I was watching a few of the games last night before going to sleep.
Now to spend ALL DAY catching up on the rest!
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Was in a debate with Akou about how to play Sona. He feels I should build her AP only. I personally feel she provides much more benefit to the team as an aura support because she only has her Q nuke that isn't targeted and her ult is on a long CD even at cap. I do build some AP (amazing what you get with just an AA staff and Rabadon's)
Without baron or blue buff, here is my Sona in Q stance.
(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9022/sonan.png)
I think what's more telling is the buffs I'm providing to the team including the relevant of Sona stances.
Attack Damage: +28
Armor: +32
Magic Resist: +35
Ability Power: +50
Spell Vamp: 25%
Cooldown Reduction: 10%
Mana Regen: +12 per 5
Movement Speed: +20 (+14% bursts)
I think a team would much rather have that than a one hit wonder with Sona's Q (pure AP build ~850 damage on 4-6 second cd).
You may argue that AP = heals. I counter with Sona's heals are on a 4-6 second cd. As such I believe they are designed for laning counter harass and before/after team fights, not during, when people out of position are going to be burst down in 2 seconds anyway. This is also the problem I generally have with Soraka. That isn't to say that heals aren't spammed during fights, just that a team shouldn't think they're invincible when it's such a crap shoot.
A note about Aegis of the Legion:
I normally detest this item. However, combined with Sona's W and even a bit of Q makes this a very cost effective and essential item to any aura centric build.
A better way to think of Aegis is to remember that it's effecting 5 people (including yourself), so really the team stats on the aura should be
Attack Damage +40
Armor +60
Magic Resistance +75
That makes your team much tougher overall.
/endrant
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I play Sona often, and when I'm doing ranked or playing with a premade (read: playing seriously), I follow the support role in the purest sense. What that means is duo-laning bottom with usually the AD carry, and babysitting them so they get ALL the farm. A Sona with single or double-digit CS by the end of the game is doing things RIGHT.
That said, my items on her are often a Philosopher's Stone, Aegis, and Heart of Gold. Now you might notice that those are very cheap and wondering where the rest of the gold is going, and that's easy. I buy wards. TONS of wards, since no matter how much I squawk like a parrot at my team to buy wards they never do. I also buy an Oracle's Elixir to hunt wards, since as a support I should never die.
Now, if a game is going on FOREVER (longer than 40 minutes), I'll start building other items depending on the situation (team composition, problem characters, etc.). I do often get WotA for my AP buddy on the team, but honestly games shouldn't be lasting that long. The goal of Sona is to enable your team to farm up those super-items, since she doesn't need them herself.
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I agree with you on the ward front, I usually buy them in chunks so I don't forget. The math I follow is that 3 gold/10 runes + the gold/10 mastery = 72 gold every three minutes. Sight wards cost 75 gold, so just off my runes and mastery I buy the equivalent of 1 ward every three minutes; usually just buying 5 before the 15, 30, and 45 minute marks respectively. I space them out as needed (hopefully at least one other person on the team is buying them, but meh).
I also like to roll with Clairvoyance on Sona to provide spot checking when wards are down for jungle, dragon, baron, mia ganks, etc. Often times I find I can predict where the enemy is going to be just based on past experiences. With the 9/0/21 masteries CV is up often and lasts for a while.
The build above reflects a super late game finish. Typically by the end of a game I have only my aura items with this build order.
Amp tome + mana pot -> kage's -> tear and/or tier 1 boots depending on gold in hand and how game is progressing -> 5 wards ~15 minutes -> Aegis -> Soul Shroud (kindlegem or mana manipulator depending on gold in hand when forced to base). -> 5 wards ~ 30minutes -> merc treads or lucidity boots (depending on enemy team comp, usually merc treads) -> sell kage's for will of the ancients -> 5 wards ~45 minutes -> AA staff -> Rabadon's -> Elixirs
Typically games end before I finish my WoTA. Having the huge mana pool from Tear/AA is so easy on sona. I usually max it out by 30 minutes, I can't even do that with my Ryze. If I'm in solo queue normal, sometimes I'll skip the wards entirely (since nobody pays attention anyway) and grab a philo stone to fill that slot. Also, if in a premade and the tank says they'll get Aegis, I'll skip building it until later or replace it with Shurelya's Reverie (coupled with active E on Sona it's like a team flash to initiate fights... epic win).
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All european finals, boo :-(
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For some reason, I can't watch the videos. It just says "Unable to load plugin: unable to load plugin 'liverail', url: 'http://vox-static.liverail.com/swf/v4/plugins/flowplayer/LiveRailPlugin320.swf'
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I caught about half the tournament live including the epic finals. Definitely worth watching the videos of the matches again. Just absolutely amazing game play. So many talented people, doing absurd things. Ward and map awareness up the ass, strategy, counter play, and the world's best crushing face with no more than four end game items, usually getting only one or two.
One thing I found striking was that all the teams won or lost as teams. Nobody trying to be Rambo, or off alone like an idiot getting ganked.
I think Phreak analyzed it best, that if you looked at the assists on a team, they were all the same or within 1 or 2, meaning everyone was present for fights for the most part.
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Got my maxed out Malz build going today in a ranked match and was carrying my team hard 25-9-12.
Then I got the worst disconnect ever, in the middle of a very decisive team fight. By the time I got the client restarted, game was over, I had been killed and we lost :-/
(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/5580/malzahar.png)
Zhonya's pissed off their karth so much, I'm very happy with the build :-)
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How is Singed not the most OP Tank?
note: this is without blue buff
(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/223/singed.png)
Personally I don't understand how that's not the most overpowered tank in the game.
He has an AoE slow (up every 8 with cdr), he can chase just about anyone down, his fling is a hard disable and does 1000 damage with all that AP, and with capped cdr about 3-4 flings in any given team fight, has 54.5% CC reduction (merc+ult), and if the other team ignores him, he's going to do 280 damage to every person on the other team every second they don't kill him. All this with an overall EHP of over 10000.
Even my Amumu's most offensive despair only does around 100-200 damage per second. GG :-p
edit: I figured out why he's not the most OP tank ever, even though the ult is up every 35 seconds, that's 35 seconds where he's much weaker. As well, he only has two damaging spells, which effectively cuts his role as an AP damage dealer in half (although Lich Bane works well to add a little extra oomph).
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Milestone
(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9117/500thwin2.png)
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Back off Dag! Hes not OP!! If Riot nerfs him because u started this thread imma go dominican on yo Ashe! (Lolpunmuch?)
And... if your edit statement is the reason why your failing at making him the most OP... Just gotta play him some more :D TBH i just rely on my ult for the movement speed to catch up baddies, or to run away and make em follow me all the way thru the jungle when i face check bushes... Not on all the other sweet things it gives :D so i just consider them a bonus :P
Btw!! OMG gimme your build!!! SO HAX!
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im thinking of starting shaco... Dag help me!!!
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Because Singed's ult lasts a whopping 25 seconds on a 60sec cdr (so up every 35) I prefer to use it as part of his base stats, using ghost as an extra speed burst as needed. I'm not failing with him, but his playstyle is distinct from other champs with similar ults like sion or alistar.
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I dint mean u were failing... its pretty hard to fail as singed with those stats... lol
i just sayd that u were failing at categorizing him as the most op... but let me ask you.. if not him, then who?
Btw... still owe me that build xD
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I dint mean u were failing... its pretty hard to fail as singed with those stats... lol
I just sayd that u were failing at categorizing him as the most op... but let me ask you.. if not him, then who?
Btw... still owe me that build xD
Ah well, yeah, to me the most OP "tank" is Amumu because aside from having a fantastic kit, every single one of his abilities deal damage and all have fantastic AP ratios, so he has all the built in utility of a tank and he can burst down a squishy champ. The only thing I wish I could figure out was a way to get his cdr at or near 40 while still having at least 9000ehp and 500AP. Right now I rely on grabbing blue elixir and golem buff to get his cdr to 35%, but even as a jungler I don't like having to rely on neutral buffs and elixirs are a finish build luxury to me; I think it's stupid to buy them before the 40 minute mark.
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I dint mean u were failing... its pretty hard to fail as singed with those stats... lol
I just sayd that u were failing at categorizing him as the most op... but let me ask you.. if not him, then who?
Btw... still owe me that build xD
Ah well, yeah, to me the most OP "tank" is Amumu because aside from having a fantastic kit, every single one of his abilities deal damage and all have fantastic AP ratios, so he has all the built in utility of a tank and he can burst down a squishy champ. The only thing I wish I could figure out was a way to get his cdr at or near 40 while still having at least 9500ehp and 500AP. Right now I rely on grabbing blue elixir and golem buff to get his cdr to 35%, but even as a jungler I don't like having to rely on neutral buffs and elixirs are a finish build luxury to me; I think it's stupid to buy them before the 40 minute mark.
Remember you can always find my basic builds here
http://leaguecraft.com/users/da6onet/builds
Of course that doesn't cover all variations (like gold vs move speed quints) and order, but here is the basic build order.
amp tome + red pot->kage's->philo stone->boots 1->null mantle+chain armor->catalyst->RoA->merc treads->glacial shroud->lich bane->frozen heart->sell gold item for rabadons->sell gold items for void staff->elixirs
I tried using tear/AA staff with force of nature and armor yellows for singed, and on paper it's an amazing build, but in reality you will never spam your skills enough to max it out. Still somewhat viable, just not as strong for game that finish under 45 minutes.
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AA on singed is just not worth it... really... ive done my math and along with my gameplay i will never max it out.
I really dont like gold/5 builds :s but i guess i can try it out.
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AA on singed is just not worth it... really... ive done my math and along with my gameplay I will never max it out.
I really don't like gold/5 builds :s but I guess I can try it out.
If you haven't read my post on gold items, I think it's on page 3 of this thread.
Generating gold via runes, masteries, or items is just something I incorporate in most of my characters to combat the "pro" criticism of 6 item builds being too expensive to be practical.
The approach really does snowball out of control about 25 minutes in or so, as evidenced by the last time I pitted my 4xgp/10 rune/mastery + 3xgp/10 item ashe build vs the other team's Ashe that had 3 doran's blades. She didn't get a kill on me in mid, and my cs score relative to her was was -20 about 20 minutes in +100 by end game. While we achieved our infinity edge and phantom dancer within about 3 minutes of eachother, by end game I had a last whisper, two phantom dancers, edge, bloodthirster and was starting on my madreds while she had zerkers, edge, dancer, vampiric scepter, bf sword and a doran's blade. Needless to say I had about 6000 gold on her (she also bought elixirs), about double the damage output and more kills. Also... we won.
I will say, whether you have doran's items or gp10 items, a ranged AD is generally only as good as the team's tank, and I really can't recall the last time I won a game as Ashe without a real tank (fuck you AP Alistar).
I will say I have tried incorporating gp10 items on Ryze and Malz, and it wasn't really a good fit.
1. mages typically have burst damage and as such should be farming kills fairly easily
2. mages scale more like tanks in that grabbing early parts of end game items like tear or fiendish codex gets you half or three quarters of the way where you're going, as opposed to trying to build a phantom dancer, which kinda sucks until it's finished.
A note about stacking doran's blades and rings on carries.
I do not endorse stacking doran's items unless you meet the at least one of the three following criteria.
1. You're playing a 3v3
2. You're playing a with a premade team and it's a high stakes low kill game (ie tournament play).
3. You not only expect the game to be done under 30 minutes, it's your goal. (this is most people).
The idea behind stacking blades/rings is that the stats are cheaper to obtain through doran's items than their counter parts (3 blades lifesteal hp and damage cheaper than 3 long swords a giant's belt and a vampiric scepter). As well, because you're not going to be pressed for inventory space early-mid game, it's ok to fill up two or three slots with doran's items before you have to sell them to make room.
All things (kills/cs/deaths) being equal, every time you buy a doran's item you need to earn 237 more gold to get to your end game build. So someone with two or three blades needs to earn 474 to 711 more gold to break even. Many people swear by the times they got away with a smidge of health thanks to the doran's item or needed an extra 10 damage to kill that person that got away because they didn't have a doran's item. I say good for them, but in the long term, you shouldn't bank your games on 100hp or 15ap.
btw, that gold generating ashe build I mentioned earlier, earned me 3000 gold (including original buy cost) by the time I sold my last gold item. Anyone would be hard pressed to farm enough kills to earn 3711 gold (assuming you bought three blades) to match my gold generating build, and that assumes our cs is equal and I get no kills :-)
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Yeey just went into a ranked... 11/6 and got a quadra then they surrendered... Singed ftw... The one who got away was Sion with a miserable 45 hp T_T
This game I decided to go for Boots of Swiftness instead of Sorc's Shoes... I gotta say I love the 436ms instead of the 418... But I felt like I was gimped real hard :S.
So im at a xroad... Speed or Damage?? Im a Speed whore thou... I got the Need For Speed really bad... But at the same time I wanna be the one not caring to run in there and past the enemy team while getting me some kills and ending up carrying the team :P
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I never need another skin again. I'm so glad I'm going, may be at the Riot booth all weekend though.
http://paxprime2011.leagueoflegends.com/article/get-exclusive-pax-sivir-skin-free-pax-prime
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That is an awesome skin; however Sivir isn't a popular pick since her Q got nerfed...le sigh. I loved picking her up during ranked games and all I did was dominate mid lane and taking down both towers before the 15 minute mark.
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I finally bit down and started playing this. I've gone through the tutorial and a few bot matches, and I still have no fucking idea what I'm doing.
Since it appears none of us got into this round of the TOR beta weekend, I was hoping someone could show me the ropes. I'm registered as "Manic Velocity".
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Welcome to the pod people Manic....
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lolol Ive added you, poke me if you wanna play ^^
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...
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Why do I feel as if I've wandered into a seedy crack den?
Everybody's eyeballing me, and I'm a little ashamed of myself, but my feet won't stop walking.
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Because that's exactly what just happened.
Also, I added you. Let's play!
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I'll add you tonight =D
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(http://riot-web-static.s3.amazonaws.com/images/news/Sept%202011%20Temp/reverse_annie_promo_en.jpg)
My favorite skin.
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Maglorius
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Hey guys, my in-game name is Faidin, yeah I know it has an "in" instead of "en" someone took Faiden and when I looked them up they hadn't played any games whatsoever -.-. I mainly play Anivia, I am level 30 and I do like to do ranked as well as normal games. Dominion is fun too.
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I'm just going to go ahead and say that Swain is a boss. Very few fucks are given when I play him. That is all.
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Like me with my old Karthus? ;)
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I just had a friend who found two PAX Sivir skins. If you want one, PM me. If more then two people ask for it, a battle royal must be had.
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(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/Shadow_shev/leaguetruth.jpg)